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Switch to Forum Live View The Best of All Possible Worlds
2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 10:24AM #11
koolpoi
Posts: 6,520

Jun 13, 2012 -- 10:11AM, Kemmer wrote:


So even in Heaven Evil is needed?



Honi soit qui mal y pense.




Care to offer a translation?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 10:39AM #12
Kemmer
Posts: 16,622

Jun 13, 2012 -- 10:24AM, koolpoi wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 10:11AM, Kemmer wrote:


So even in Heaven Evil is needed?



Honi soit qui mal y pense.




Care to offer a translation?




It's on the royal coat of arms of the UK; "Evil to him who evil thinks."

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 3:36PM #13
lope
Posts: 11,752

Jun 13, 2012 -- 7:05AM, Adelphe wrote:

...(with a nod to Paladin), was coined by Gottfried Leibniz (German polymath and Christian) in his attempt to solve the problem of evil.


"...For Leibniz, an additional central concern is the matter of reconciling human freedom (indeed, God's own freedom) with the determinism inherent in his own theory of the universe. Leibniz' solution casts God as a kind of "optimizer" of the collection of all original possibilities: Since He is good and omnipotent, and since He chose this world out of all possibilities, this world must be good—in fact, this world is the best of all possible worlds.


On the one hand, this view might help us rationalize some of what we experience: Imagine that all the world is made of good and evil. The best possible world would have the most good and the least evil. Courage is better than no courage. It might be observed, then, that without evil to challenge us, there can be no courage. Since evil brings out the best aspects of humanity, evil is regarded as necessary. So in creating this world God made some evil to make the best of all possible worlds. On the other hand, the theory explains evil not by denying it or even rationalizing it—but simply by declaring it to be part of the optimum combination of elements that comprise the best possible Godly choice. Leibniz thus does not claim that the world is overall very good, but that because of the necessary interconnections of goods and evils, God, though omnipotent, could not improve it in one way without making it worse in some other way.[1](wiki)


Thoughts?







I don't think this world is better than the after life we hope for with God.  I agree this world may be the best of all possible worlds for separating the sheep from the goats--determining who the citicizens of the next world will be and preparing them for it.  I certainly disagree that God is the source of evil or that evil will be required in the next realm.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 3:50PM #14
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,819

...IMAGINE that all the world is made of "good" and "evil"....


OK...it's a false DUALITY. God vs Satan. Angels vs Demons. Man's Natural Tendancy toward Self and Away from God...versus...a "good society".
Omni-Attributes of God ...versus...."free will" of Man


The best possible world would have the most good and the least evil.


Nope...a true SPIRITUAL realm would have ALL "good" and NO "evil".


....without evil to challenge us, there can be no "good" (done)....


For believers, the only "good works" are those after salvation and guided by God the Holy Spirit.


Since evil brings out the best aspects of humanity, evil is regarded as necessary.


Man's natural tendancy is to follow self centered Body/Soul, and to ignore the SPIRITUAL image inside...created by God


So in CREATING this "world", God MADE some evil to make "the best of all possible worlds."


Evil is simply the absence of God. God did not create "evil".


All creations were perfectly good. God allows what man perceives as evil to bring ultimate good and glory to God.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:15PM #15
Blü
Posts: 25,070

Isaiah 45


7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.


There you have it from the horse's mouth.


And if you're a monotheist, then it HAS to be right.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:18PM #16
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:15PM, Blü wrote:

Isaiah 45


7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.


There you have it from the horse's mouth.


And if you're a monotheist, then it HAS to be right.



Evil is simply the absence of God. God did not create "evil".


MORE evidence these guys don't know what they believe.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:24PM #17
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:15PM, Blü wrote:


Isaiah 45


7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.


There you have it from the horse's mouth.


And if you're a monotheist, then it HAS to be right.





evil (ra) better translated as "misery" or "woe"....


Yep, the Lord will sure hit you in the head with a pipe.



Hint:  the word needs to be the opposite of peace. 

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:28PM #18
Blü
Posts: 25,070

Ed


evil (ra) better translated as "misery" or "woe"....


Hebrew ra' is translated as 'evil' in 442 of the 663 times it occurs in the bible, Blue Letter Bible tells me.


If it means anything, it means 'evil'.


And yes, for a monotheist, Yahweh must always be the source of misery and woe as well.



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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:32PM #19
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:28PM, Blü wrote:


Ed


evil (ra) better translated as "misery" or "woe"....


Hebrew ra' is translated as 'evil' in 442 of the 663 times it occurs in the bible, Blue Letter Bible tells me.


If it means anything, it means 'evil'.


And yes, for a monotheist, Yahweh must always be the source of misery and woe as well.






So?  I personally don't attribute calamity to Satan.  Satan is just a tempter he has no power.  You'd make a good fundie, Blu.

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:47PM #20
Kemmer
Posts: 16,622

So?  I personally don't attribute calamity to Satan.  Satan is just a tempter he has no power.  You'd make a good fundie, Blu.



Funny.  The interpretation of the JWs is that Satan rules all world governments as well as all of (non-JW) Christianity.

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