Post Reply
Page 2 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next
Switch to Forum Live View No Scriptures in the last 2400 years?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 12:42PM #11
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:10AM, chanceuse wrote:


Hi Shusha!


You write:


In the Jewish point of view, the time of the coming of the mashiach is influenced or determined by the conduct of mankind.  The prophecies, and the (divinely inspired) commentaries, describe the conditions of his coming.


At this rate, it may seem that it will never happen...


Can I ask if you see many signs that we are going in the right direction?  




I'm not Shusha, either - but there aren't 'signs' in the sense that the Christians talk about re:  the Second Coming.  


I think most Jews are like me in outlook:  we focus on the here & now, trying to do the work of repairing creation so that it will be ready for Moschiach ben Dovid.   We are instructed in Talmud "If you are planting a tree and someone comes running to tell you the Messiah has arrived - finish planting the tree before you run to greet the Messiah!"


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 5:18PM #12
Shusha
Posts: 4,510

Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:10AM, chanceuse wrote:


Hi Shusha!


You write:


In the Jewish point of view, the time of the coming of the mashiach is influenced or determined by the conduct of mankind.  The prophecies, and the (divinely inspired) commentaries, describe the conditions of his coming.


At this rate, it may seem that it will never happen...


Can I ask if you see many signs that we are going in the right direction?  





With respect, I think you are asking the wrong questions.  It is a very Christian idea (imo) to look for "signs" or "prophecies" which will reveal externally the intentions of G-d. 


That is not the Jewish focus.  (We) already know G-d's intentions. (We) know our role in His intent for creation.  If (we) ask anything at all it is:  Is this the time of greatest need for the Moshiach?  Or, alternatively, Is this the time of greatest worthiness for the Mosiach? 


The answers to both of these questions depend on the role mankind plays in partnering with G-d to bring about His intentions for His creation.   The focus is not on looking for outward "signs".  It is focussed inward:  Have I, personally, done enough today to repair the world?  Have I personally fulfilled G-d's commandments today?  Have (we), as Jews, done enough communally this day?  Its not about waiting for G-d to come to us. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:14AM #13
chanceuse
Posts: 30

Hi ffb!


You write:


as a thumbnail response, you should make the following distinction: the talmud is made up of 2 basic parts, the mishna (and to a lesser degree, the braita and tosefta) and then the gemara. The mishna is the oral law handed to Moses at sinai, and transmitted orally by the sages. It includes explanation and legal application, plus textual explication. The gemara is the record of rabbinic argument over the specific meaning of the mishnaic statements, supported by other mishna texts, exegetical rules or other biblical texts.


Do I understand you correctly if I think you are trying to tell me that the mishna is God's word just as much as the Tanakh?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:31AM #14
chanceuse
Posts: 30

Hi Leah!


You wrote:


YHVH does NOT require us to go through some intermediary to reach Him - nor do we need someone else to interpret His Tanakh for us.



So this means that the messiah is a messenger (like a prophet)?  What would be the difference...a phophet AND someone who frees the Jews?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:36AM #15
chanceuse
Posts: 30

Hello again Leah!


You add:


there aren't 'signs' in the sense that the Christians talk about re:  the Second Coming.


The signs I was referring to is that society (humanity) is doing better and better (thus making it compatible for the messiah to come), not signs written in the Scriptures.


I also find this interesting:


We are instructed in Talmud "If you are planting a tree and someone comes running to tell you the Messiah has arrived - finish planting the tree before you run to greet the Messiah!"

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:49AM #16
chanceuse
Posts: 30

Hi Shusha!


You write:


With respect, I think you are asking the wrong questions.  It is a very Christian idea (imo) to look for "signs" or "prophecies" which will reveal externally the intentions of G-d. 


I understand what you mean. 


What you write next talks about what I'm specifically referring to (the second question):


If (we) ask anything at all it is:  Is this the time of greatest need for the Moshiach?  Or, alternatively, Is this the time of greatest worthiness for the Mosiach? 


The answers to both of these questions depend on the role mankind plays in partnering with G-d to bring about His intentions for His creation.   The focus is not on looking for outward "signs".  It is focussed inward:  Have I, personally, done enough today to repair the world? 


If this is the case, would it mean that not enough has been done in the past 2400 years?  I know I can be a little too pragmatic...  In this case (the Hebrew Scriptures), do Jews, as a group, think they are doing more and more to repair the world? 


I have to say that I include myself in the we, even though I'm not Jewish, because I have a similar goal.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:53AM #17
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Chanceuse, I'm not Shusha but if you don't mind I'll toss in my 2cents.....


I dunno 'bout anyone else, but I've never thought of it in terms of 'not having done enough' - I think that's a kind of perspective that is NOT encouraged in Judaism.


What your post made me think of was this quote: "You are not required to complete the task, but neither are you free to desist from it"


 


The full quote in context is:


Rabbi Tarfon said: The day is short, the task is great, the laborers are lazy, the wage is abundant and the master is urgent.  He used to say: It is not incumbent upon you to finish the task. Yet, you are not free to desist from it. If you have studied much in the Torah much reward will be given you, for faithful is your employer who shall pay you the reward of your labor. And know that the reward for the righteous shall be in the time to come.


Pirkei Avot, ch2, v20/21   www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Rabbinics...

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:01PM #18
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:31AM, chanceuse wrote:


Hi Leah!


You wrote:


YHVH does NOT require us to go through some intermediary to reach Him - nor do we need someone else to interpret His Tanakh for us.


So this means that the messiah is a messenger (like a prophet)?  What would be the difference...a phophet AND someone who frees the Jews?





I'm not sure we Jews will need to be freed any more than the rest of humanity....but then for me MbD is not an immediate concern. 


Looking at the progress we humans have NOT made - I think the End of Days and the Messianic Age is a very long way off : ((

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:08PM #19
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

To say that the Jewish People is 'waiting' for the MbD is really a very poor way to put it.  We eagerly anticipate his arrival - but we are not 'waiting' by sitting around nudjing(pestering) the Almighty to "Send him, already!"  


What we are doing is 'tikkun olam' - repairing the brokenness of Creation - and trying to get everything in readiness so that MbD can arrive.  One of the 'requirements' is that all Israel (= the Jewish People) celebrate the Sabbath two Sabbaths in a row - and that of course wouldn't mean 'doing the rituals', but 'doing with true dedication & focus' (=kavanah). 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 1:47PM #20
Shusha
Posts: 4,510

If this is the case, would it mean that not enough has been done in the past 2400 years?  I know I can be a little too pragmatic...  In this case (the Hebrew Scriptures), do Jews, as a group, think they are doing more and more to repair the world?



chanceuse,


Its hard to explain, but you still aren't asking the right questions.  The moshiach will come in its time.  Its not something to concern ourselves with.  What Leah said would be my own response:  "You are not required to complete the task, but neither are you free to desist from it".



Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 2 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook