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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 10:32AM #51
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


Woodzz


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 10:52AM #52
mrjordan
Posts: 2,165

Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 11:04AM #53
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:52AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?




All that it means in Rev 7 is that it is a group of virgin males God seals using an angel, as firtsfruits during the great tribulation . Nothing more nothing less, anything else said is reading into which is not there! 




The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 11:09AM #54
mrjordan
Posts: 2,165

Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:04AM, Johan Henze wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:52AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?




All that it means in Rev 7 is that it is a group of virgin males God seals using an angel, as firtsfruits during the great tribulation .




Why do these 144,000 have such a privilege, as you say here?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 11:23AM #55
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:52AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?





If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.


Regarding the 144,000, the number 144,000 is the only thing about them that you take literally.  Have you seen my post about the numbers?  If this group began to be gathered from the time of the Apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died.  In all the descriptions of them in Rev 7 and 14 they are not said to be kings or priests, are they.  And from Rev 14:5 they would not include any from the ranks of the WT Org leadership.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 11:44AM #56
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

 


Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:04AM, Johan Henze wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:52AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?




All that it means in Rev 7 is that it is a group of virgin males God seals using an angel, as firtsfruits during the great tribulation .




Why do these 144,000 have such a privilege, as you say here?




The only privilge is that God uses them during a specila time in the future for a specific purpose !



Whatever is said about them is already been said about those before them !



For example : Firstfruits


God called the Jews firtsfruits in the OT!


 


God called the 1st century Christians who were send abroad firtsfruits


 


and so are the 144000 they are used as firtsfruits of that harvest, the great tribulation!


All the promises that are already made to those who live and died before them are not denied them!


    


   


 


 

The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 11:56AM #57
mrjordan
Posts: 2,165

Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:23AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:52AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?





If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.


Regarding the 144,000, the number 144,000 is the only thing about them that you take literally.  Have you seen my post about the numbers?  If this group began to be gathered from the time of the Apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died.  In all the descriptions of them in Rev 7 and 14 they are not said to be kings or priests, are they.  And from Rev 14:5 they would not include any from the ranks of the WT Org leadership.


Woodzz




I see here where you say, "this group began to be gathered from the time of the apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died." How did you come to this conclusion?




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 12:01PM #58
mrjordan
Posts: 2,165

Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:44AM, Johan Henze wrote:


 


Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:04AM, Johan Henze wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:52AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?




All that it means in Rev 7 is that it is a group of virgin males God seals using an angel, as firtsfruits during the great tribulation .




Why do these 144,000 have such a privilege, as you say here?




The only privilge is that God uses them during a specila time in the future for a specific purpose !



Whatever is said about them is already been said about those before them !



For example : Firstfruits


God called the Jews firtsfruits in the OT!


 


God called the 1st century Christians who were send abroad firtsfruits


 


and so are the 144000 they are used as firtsfruits of that harvest, the great tribulation!


All the promises that are already made to those who live and died before them are not denied them!





MrJ: Woodzz posted that the 144,000 have already already been harvested. Yet here you say the 144,000 will be the first to go to heaven during the great tribulation.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 12:41PM #59
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


MrJ: Woodzz posted that the 144,000 have already already been harvested. Yet here you say the 144,000 will be the first to go to heaven during the great tribulation.





Please don't do that, MrJordan.


You misquoted me.  I said "if" because your belief is that they began to be gathered in the first century, a time when all Christians were of the anointed class.


Regarding the 144,000, the number 144,000 is the only thing about them that you take literally.  Have you seen my post about the numbers?  If this group began to be gathered from the time of the Apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died.


Please edit your posts to reflect what I actually said.  Thank you.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 12:45PM #60
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:56AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 11:23AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:52AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:32AM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 10:09AM, mrjordan wrote:


You can let it be known to Jehovah and Jesus that you wish to rule with Jesus in heaven. But  the final choice is not ours to make. Just as you had no choice in your human birth, Jehovah decides your entering (birth) into His kingdom. (John 1:13)


I, however, do not wish to rule mankind. I'm sure heaven is wonderful but in my heart I would be homesick for earth. Thus I know Jehovah is not calling for me. THe earthly hope is open to all mankind.





Did you read the scripture I posted?


Matthew 6:19-21 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


Did you know that from 1879 to 1932 your leaders taught that the great crowd of Rev 7 are shown to be in heaven? 


edited to add:  I meant to address the scripture you referenced, John 1:13:


John 1:11-13 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


It says as many as received him and believed in him, it isn't limiting it to 144K.  Don't you believe you've received and believe in Jesus?





Yes, I believe in Jesus and try to do the things he instructed us to do.


So in Revelation chapter 7 when it mentions the number 144,000. What does this number mean to you?





If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.


Regarding the 144,000, the number 144,000 is the only thing about them that you take literally.  Have you seen my post about the numbers?  If this group began to be gathered from the time of the Apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died.  In all the descriptions of them in Rev 7 and 14 they are not said to be kings or priests, are they.  And from Rev 14:5 they would not include any from the ranks of the WT Org leadership.


Woodzz




I see here where you say, "this group began to be gathered from the time of the apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died." How did you come to this conclusion?




Where did I say that?


Woodzz

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