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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 12:48PM #61
mrjordan
Posts: 2,018

Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:41PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


MrJ: Woodzz posted that the 144,000 have already already been harvested. Yet here you say the 144,000 will be the first to go to heaven during the great tribulation.





Please don't do that, MrJordan.


You misquoted me.  I said "if" because your belief is that they began to be gathered in the first century, a time when all Christians were of the anointed class.


Regarding the 144,000, the number 144,000 is the only thing about them that you take literally.  Have you seen my post about the numbers?  If this group began to be gathered from the time of the Apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died.


Please edit your posts to reflect what I actually said.  Thank you.


Woodzz




So by IF you are saying you are not sure who the 144,000 are? Or do you agree with Johan? We all know what Witnesses believe. My curiosity is with other beliefs about the 144,000. So I can compare.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 1:01PM #62
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:48PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:41PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


MrJ: Woodzz posted that the 144,000 have already already been harvested. Yet here you say the 144,000 will be the first to go to heaven during the great tribulation.





Please don't do that, MrJordan.


You misquoted me.  I said "if" because your belief is that they began to be gathered in the first century, a time when all Christians were of the anointed class.


Regarding the 144,000, the number 144,000 is the only thing about them that you take literally.  Have you seen my post about the numbers?  If this group began to be gathered from the time of the Apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died.


Please edit your posts to reflect what I actually said.  Thank you.


Woodzz




So by IF you are saying you are not sure who the 144,000 are? Or do you agree with Johan? We all know what Witnesses believe. My curiosity is with other beliefs about the 144,000. So I can compare.





No.  By IF I mean IF your belief is true.


I'm talking about your belief, which is that the 144,000 began to be gathered starting with the apostles and early christians in the 1st century.  If your belief is true then the number 144,000 was filled up long ago, otherwise you're teaching that there have only been 144,000 Christians over a period of some 1,900+ years.  Good grief! 


Look at what the Bible says about the 144,000.  IF it isn't a symbolic number, then how do you get symbolic for all the other things said about them?


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 1:09PM #63
mrjordan
Posts: 2,018

Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:01PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:48PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:41PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


MrJ: Woodzz posted that the 144,000 have already already been harvested. Yet here you say the 144,000 will be the first to go to heaven during the great tribulation.





Please don't do that, MrJordan.


You misquoted me.  I said "if" because your belief is that they began to be gathered in the first century, a time when all Christians were of the anointed class.


Regarding the 144,000, the number 144,000 is the only thing about them that you take literally.  Have you seen my post about the numbers?  If this group began to be gathered from the time of the Apostles, it was completed long ago, probably before the last of the apostles died.


Please edit your posts to reflect what I actually said.  Thank you.


Woodzz




So by IF you are saying you are not sure who the 144,000 are? Or do you agree with Johan? We all know what Witnesses believe. My curiosity is with other beliefs about the 144,000. So I can compare.





No.  By IF I mean IF your belief is true.


I'm talking about your belief, which is that the 144,000 began to be gathered starting with the apostles and early christians in the 1st century.  If your belief is true then the number 144,000 was filled up long ago, otherwise you're teaching that there have only been 144,000 Christians over a period of some 1,900+ years.  Good grief! 


Look at what the Bible says about the 144,000.  IF it isn't a symbolic number, then how do you get symbolic for all the other things said about them?


Woodzz




Do you think it is a symbolic number? I would like to know your belief about the 144,000.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 1:25PM #64
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:09PM, mrjordan wrote:


Do you think it is a symbolic number? I would like to know your belief about the 144,000.





My belief about them is what the Bible says about them in Rev 7 and 14.  Compare your belief to what the Bible says about them.  Does it say they are kings?  Do they even have crowns?  No, then perhaps your belief is wrong.  After all, you got your belief from a group who now teach something different about the group described right after the 144,000, so they don't really know what they're talking about when they limit those who reign with Christ at a specific number, especially since they go on to say there were only 144,000 Christians from the time of Christ until 1935.


What do you think about Rutherford throwing the great crowd out of heaven?  I'd like to know what your reaction to that is.


 


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 1:41PM #65
mrjordan
Posts: 2,018

Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:25PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:09PM, mrjordan wrote:


Do you think it is a symbolic number? I would like to know your belief about the 144,000.





My belief about them is what the Bible says about them in Rev 7 and 14.  Compare your belief to what the Bible says about them.  Does it say they are kings?  Do they even have crowns?  No, then perhaps your belief is wrong.  After all, you got your belief from a group who now teach something different about the group described right after the 144,000, so they don't really know what they're talking about when they limit those who reign with Christ at a specific number, especially since they go on to say there were only 144,000 Christians from the time of Christ until 1935.


What do you think about Rutherford throwing the great crowd out of heaven?  I'd like to know what your reaction to that is.


 


Woodzz




I was hoping for something more in depth. Like describing what you think these named tribes mean. Why is their a number in verse 4 saying 144,000 but in verse 9 there is a crowd that cannot be numbered.


Woodzz if you wish to have a discussion, then like Johan did, you need to give a counter view. Just saying, someone is wrong because I believe they are is not a discussion. Talk to me about the 144,000 as if I had never heard that number before and now I'm asking you about it.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 2:22PM #66
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:41PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:25PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:09PM, mrjordan wrote:


Do you think it is a symbolic number? I would like to know your belief about the 144,000.





My belief about them is what the Bible says about them in Rev 7 and 14.  Compare your belief to what the Bible says about them.  Does it say they are kings?  Do they even have crowns?  No, then perhaps your belief is wrong.  After all, you got your belief from a group who now teach something different about the group described right after the 144,000, so they don't really know what they're talking about when they limit those who reign with Christ at a specific number, especially since they go on to say there were only 144,000 Christians from the time of Christ until 1935.


What do you think about Rutherford throwing the great crowd out of heaven?  I'd like to know what your reaction to that is.


 


Woodzz




I was hoping for something more in depth. Like describing what you think these named tribes mean. Why is their a number in verse 4 saying 144,000 but in verse 9 there is a crowd that cannot be numbered.


Woodzz if you wish to have a discussion, then like Johan did, you need to give a counter view. Just saying, someone is wrong because I believe they are is not a discussion. Talk to me about the 144,000 as if I had never heard that number before and now I'm asking you about it.





LOL, MrJ, a discussion means you answer questions others have asked you.  You have a history of not doing that yet insisting yours be answered - and I DID answer you concerning my beliefs about the 144,000.  Please answer the questions I've asked you, otherwise your appeal for a discussion is hollow, and worse yet, hypocritical.


Your hopes are all earthly, in fact you say that's where your heart is: 'if you were in heaven, you'd be homesick in your heart for earth.'  Correct me if I haven't relayed your thoughts on that from what you posted earlier.  I pointed out the scripture at Matthew 6:19-21 about where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.  I asked for your thoughts on that, but you've ignored me.


I asked you about John 1:12,13, but again you've ignored my questions.


How do you account for your treatment of what I've asked you?


Woodzz


edited to add this reminder of the questions you've refused to answer:


If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 2:56PM #67
mrjordan
Posts: 2,018

Jun 21, 2012 -- 2:22PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:41PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:25PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:09PM, mrjordan wrote:


Do you think it is a symbolic number? I would like to know your belief about the 144,000.





My belief about them is what the Bible says about them in Rev 7 and 14.  Compare your belief to what the Bible says about them.  Does it say they are kings?  Do they even have crowns?  No, then perhaps your belief is wrong.  After all, you got your belief from a group who now teach something different about the group described right after the 144,000, so they don't really know what they're talking about when they limit those who reign with Christ at a specific number, especially since they go on to say there were only 144,000 Christians from the time of Christ until 1935.


What do you think about Rutherford throwing the great crowd out of heaven?  I'd like to know what your reaction to that is.


 


Woodzz




I was hoping for something more in depth. Like describing what you think these named tribes mean. Why is their a number in verse 4 saying 144,000 but in verse 9 there is a crowd that cannot be numbered.


Woodzz if you wish to have a discussion, then like Johan did, you need to give a counter view. Just saying, someone is wrong because I believe they are is not a discussion. Talk to me about the 144,000 as if I had never heard that number before and now I'm asking you about it.





LOL, MrJ, a discussion means you answer questions others have asked you.  You have a history of not doing that yet insisting yours be answered - and I DID answer you concerning my beliefs about the 144,000.  Please answer the questions I've asked you, otherwise your appeal for a discussion is hollow, and worse yet, hypocritical.


Your hopes are all earthly, in fact you say that's where your heart is: 'if you were in heaven, you'd be homesick in your heart for earth.'  Correct me if I haven't relayed your thoughts on that from what you posted earlier.  I pointed out the scripture at Matthew 6:19-21 about where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.  I asked for your thoughts on that, but you've ignored me.


I asked you about John 1:12,13, but again you've ignored my questions.


How do you account for your treatment of what I've asked you?


Woodzz


edited to add this reminder of the questions you've refused to answer:


If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.




Hummm. I don't remember you answering the question about the 144,000. What I am saying is that if you have answered the question about the 144,000 it seems to be lacking substance. Or it could be buried in a thread somewhere. If so perhaps you could link me to it. So far you gave Revelation chapter 7. I have read it. Now, who are these 144,000? You mentioned the number may be symbolic. What does it symbolize? Let's start there.


As far as the other questions plied up. They can wait, they are not going anywhere. No since in getting the responses sloppy with every post with multiple answers.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:12PM #68
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 2:56PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 2:22PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:41PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:25PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:09PM, mrjordan wrote:


Do you think it is a symbolic number? I would like to know your belief about the 144,000.





My belief about them is what the Bible says about them in Rev 7 and 14.  Compare your belief to what the Bible says about them.  Does it say they are kings?  Do they even have crowns?  No, then perhaps your belief is wrong.  After all, you got your belief from a group who now teach something different about the group described right after the 144,000, so they don't really know what they're talking about when they limit those who reign with Christ at a specific number, especially since they go on to say there were only 144,000 Christians from the time of Christ until 1935.


What do you think about Rutherford throwing the great crowd out of heaven?  I'd like to know what your reaction to that is.


 


Woodzz




I was hoping for something more in depth. Like describing what you think these named tribes mean. Why is their a number in verse 4 saying 144,000 but in verse 9 there is a crowd that cannot be numbered.


Woodzz if you wish to have a discussion, then like Johan did, you need to give a counter view. Just saying, someone is wrong because I believe they are is not a discussion. Talk to me about the 144,000 as if I had never heard that number before and now I'm asking you about it.





LOL, MrJ, a discussion means you answer questions others have asked you.  You have a history of not doing that yet insisting yours be answered - and I DID answer you concerning my beliefs about the 144,000.  Please answer the questions I've asked you, otherwise your appeal for a discussion is hollow, and worse yet, hypocritical.


Your hopes are all earthly, in fact you say that's where your heart is: 'if you were in heaven, you'd be homesick in your heart for earth.'  Correct me if I haven't relayed your thoughts on that from what you posted earlier.  I pointed out the scripture at Matthew 6:19-21 about where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.  I asked for your thoughts on that, but you've ignored me.


I asked you about John 1:12,13, but again you've ignored my questions.


How do you account for your treatment of what I've asked you?


Woodzz


edited to add this reminder of the questions you've refused to answer:


If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.




Hummm. I don't remember you answering the question about the 144,000. What I am saying is that if you have answered the question about the 144,000 it seems to be lacking substance. Or it could be buried in a thread somewhere. If so perhaps you could link me to it. So far you gave Revelation chapter 7. I have read it. Now, who are these 144,000? You mentioned the number may be symbolic. What does it symbolize? Let's start there.


As far as the other questions plied up. They can wait, they are not going anywhere. No since in getting the responses sloppy with every post with multiple answers.





I told you my belief about the 144,000 is what is in the Bible, I can copy and paste those sections of Rev 7 and 14 if you want me to, but I figured you could look them up and read them for yourself.  If they seem to be "lacking in substance" to you, well, that tells me a lot about how you view the Bible.


Now, back to what I've asked you, and if you don't even attempt an answer I'll know this discussion is over.  I'm tired of being put off, though I know this is the most favorite tactic in a JWs bookbag.


If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:28PM #69
mrjordan
Posts: 2,018

Jun 21, 2012 -- 3:12PM, woodzz wrote:



I told you my belief about the 144,000 is what is in the Bible, I can copy and paste those sections of Rev 7 and 14 if you want me to, but I figured you could look them up and read them for yourself.  If they seem to be "lacking in substance" to you, well, that tells me a lot about how you view the Bible.


Now, back to what I've asked you, and if you don't even attempt an answer I'll know this discussion is over.  I'm tired of being put off, though I know this is the most favorite tactic in a JWs bookbag.


If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.


Woodzz




It would appear you think just giving someone a scripture to read is all you need to do. So even if you were able to dislodge me from my belief in the 144,000 you don't replace it with anything to fill the hole you've made. If I were to continue with your other questions I would run into the same thing. As if to say, "Read this, good luck! If you don't understand, that shows me what kind of person you are." Is this really how you help others?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:38PM #70
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 21, 2012 -- 3:28PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 3:12PM, woodzz wrote:



I told you my belief about the 144,000 is what is in the Bible, I can copy and paste those sections of Rev 7 and 14 if you want me to, but I figured you could look them up and read them for yourself.  If they seem to be "lacking in substance" to you, well, that tells me a lot about how you view the Bible.


Now, back to what I've asked you, and if you don't even attempt an answer I'll know this discussion is over.  I'm tired of being put off, though I know this is the most favorite tactic in a JWs bookbag.


If you've received Jesus and believe in him, then you've received from him the right to be born of God, born again (John 3:3-5).  The scripture there in John 1:12,13 tells us that.  Do you agree with that scripture? 


Do you see that your longing for earth, that being homesick in your heart for earth, goes against what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:19-21?  Our treasure is in heaven and that's where our hearts should be, with Jesus!


Did you understand about the great crowd of Rev 7?  Your founder, Russell, always taught they are in a heavenly location, and for twenty years after Russell died Rutherford also taught they are in a heavenly location, before God's throne in heaven.  And btw not as a ruling class.  But around 1932 or 1935, Rutherford, in essence, threw them out of heaven.  I mean, if you think Michael and his angels put on an impressive battle throwing the devil and his demons out of heaven, look at what Rutherford did without any help at all and with no opposition at all.  He threw a great crowd beyond man's capacity to count out of heaven and closed the door in their faces.


Woodzz




It would appear you think just giving someone a scripture to read is all you need to do. So even if you were able to dislodge me from my belief in the 144,000 you don't replace it with anything to fill the hole you've made. If I were to continue with your other questions I would run into the same thing. As if to say, "Read this, good luck! If you don't understand, that shows me what kind of person you are." Is this really how you help others?





Good grief, MrJ!  I've been trying to discuss John 1:12,13 with you for hours and you keep going somewhere else.  So your hollow accusations are just that, hollow!  I'm trying to get you to look to Jesus and you're focused on the 144,000.  I'm talking to you about being born again, becoming a child of God, and you want help with who the 144,000 are.


Woodzz

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