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Switch to Forum Live View Isnt it correct to say according to JW Michael died twice ?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 11:46AM #1
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

Is it not correct to say that according to WT teaching Michael died twice, but was also recreated twice , first as flesh in the womb of Mary and when recreated as spirit?    

The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 8:03PM #2
mrjordan
Posts: 2,025

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:46AM, Johan Henze wrote:

Is it not correct to say that according to WT teachings Michael died ttwice but was also recread twice , firts as flesh in the womb of Mary and when recreated as spirit?    



Jesus only died once. There was only one death needed and that was the death of a perfect man to pay for Adam's sin.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 1:58AM #3
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:46AM, Johan Henze wrote:

Is it not correct to say that according to WT teachings Michael died ttwice but was also recread twice , firts as flesh in the womb of Mary and when recreated as spirit?    




WT Org lore is that Michael gave up his life as a spirit in heaven to be born as the man, Jesus; the man, Jesus, died and stays dead forever; Michael is recreated with a new spirit body and is endowed with Jesus' reactivated "life patterns" and retains the name Jesus.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 4:03AM #4
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,198

He may have given up his life as a spirit to be born a human, but that doesn't mean JWs teach his life ceased altogether. It means he changed natures.


Bible Teach chap. 4 p. 42 par. 14 Who Is Jesus Christ?


He transferred the life of his firstborn Son from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary.


Close To Jehovah chap. 14 p. 144 par. 13 Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” 


Willingly, God’s Son “emptied himself” of his heavenly nature. (Philippians 2:7) Miraculously, Jehovah transferred the life and the personality pattern of his firstborn heavenly Son to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. (Luke 1:27, 35)


Thus Jesus died only once - on the cross/stake.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 7:33AM #5
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

Jun 10, 2012 -- 8:03PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:46AM, Johan Henze wrote:

Is it not correct to say that according to WT teaching Michael died twice but was also recreated twice , first as flesh in the womb of Mary and when recreated as spirit?    



Jesus only died once. There was only one death needed and that was the death of a perfect man to pay for Adam's sin.




I agree with you that it was Jesus who died once !


So when Michael,s life force were transfered to the womb of Mary what happened to Michael,s spirit body ?



Please bear with me MJordan 


So whan Jesus was on the earth there was no connection between him as being Michael , correct?  


  




The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 7:59AM #6
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

Jun 11, 2012 -- 4:03AM, AnnOMaly wrote:


He may have given up his life as a spirit to be born a human, but that doesn't mean JWs teach his life ceased altogether. It means he changed natures.


Bible Teach chap. 4 p. 42 par. 14 Who Is Jesus Christ?


He transferred the life of his firstborn Son from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary.


Close To Jehovah chap. 14 p. 144 par. 13 Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” 


Willingly, God’s Son “emptied himself” of his heavenly nature. (Philippians 2:7) Miraculously, Jehovah transferred the life and the personality pattern of his firstborn heavenly Son to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. (Luke 1:27, 35)


Thus Jesus died only once - on the cross/stake.




Thanks Ann for the qoutes 

Lets look how they reason !



Son of God = Michael / Jesus


So wheter he was Michael/Jesus it the son of God just different names , just different natures  ?



So what happened to teh spirit body of Michael when his life force was transfrered to te womb opf Mary? 


  


 




The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 8:12AM #7
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 11, 2012 -- 4:03AM, AnnOMaly wrote:


He may have given up his life as a spirit to be born a human, but that doesn't mean JWs teach his life ceased altogether. It means he changed natures.


Bible Teach chap. 4 p. 42 par. 14 Who Is Jesus Christ?


He transferred the life of his firstborn Son from heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary.


Close To Jehovah chap. 14 p. 144 par. 13 Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” 


Willingly, God’s Son “emptied himself” of his heavenly nature. (Philippians 2:7) Miraculously, Jehovah transferred the life and the personality pattern of his firstborn heavenly Son to the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. (Luke 1:27, 35)


Thus Jesus died only once - on the cross/stake.





I wonder about that "life and personality pattern".......could that mean his soul?  And then at his resurrection, his soul is put into a newly created spirit body......hmmmm.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 9:39AM #8
matica
Posts: 3,063

Ok, so the holy spirit forced itself upon Mary and had a son named micheal but that really wasn't his name, it was jesus, then when jesus dies jesus no longer exist, but micheal still exist?


Oy e vay, sounds like a really bad episode of Dallas.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:09AM #9
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

Jun 11, 2012 -- 9:39AM, matica wrote:


Ok, so the holy spirit forced itself upon Mary and had a son named micheal but that really wasn't his name, it was jesus, then when jesus dies jesus no longer exist, but micheal still exist?


Oy e vay, sounds like a really bad episode of Dallas.




Michael was a RECREATED  spirit since Jesus body was dissolved into gasses but they dont want to tell me what happened to the original spirit body of Michael! I could have given them more credince if they would have admitted they teach almost something along the lines of reincarnation!   




The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:44AM #10
mrjordan
Posts: 2,025

I really like this question! I don't know of any scriptures that tells us what happened to Jesus spiritual body after he was sent to earth. That really is some food for thought though. As far as the bible says in 1 Corinthians 15:44, there is a spiritual body and physical/natural body.


The bible also tells us in verse 50 that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God". So it appears that the physical/natural body cannot go into heaven, only a spiritual body can. It goes on to say in verse 51 and 52 "Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet." So some of those risen to heaven will not even die, however flesh and blood cannot go into heaven. So it would appear their physical bodies will be left behind. The bible says "in the twinkling of eye" perhaps as fast as we can blink, those going to heaven will be brought into heaven. Now that's fast. How does Jehovah do this? The bible gives no answers. Even if it did, I can only imagine a mathmatical equation that would stump us perhaps forever.


So now lets think of Jesus when he came to earth. Did Jesus have a spiritual body before he was placed in the womb of mary? 1 Corinthians seems to say one either has a spiritual body or physical body. The chapter goes on to say that physical bodies cannot be in heaven. So, according to this Jesus must have had a spirtual body before he came to earth.


Now what happened to Jesus spiritual body when he was sent to earth? He must have left it behind BUT did he as a "being" die?


Really great questions! Because I have never thought about it before! The bible does not say anything about the spitiual body Jesus left behind. So for that, we may never know. If it was important than Jehovah will let us know.


As for the second question, did he as "being" die? We only have one clue and that is 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 "Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet." So I guess the question is, does the way some those going into heaven "in the twinkling of an eye" without dying, work in reverse for Jesus being placed in Mary's womb? I have no idea if that is how it works. Very interesting question though!

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