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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:44AM #51
Ibn
Posts: 4,788

Jun 8, 2012 -- 4:08PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


From lilrabbit:


"Let there be no compulsion in religion." (Qur'án, 2:256)


From myself:


Putting the best possible face on this hypocrisy, as if there is no compulsion or coercion in Islam, one could only conclude that the moderates in Islam and/or those who believe the above words, have been cowered into silence by the hordes of jihadist extremists.  These extremists seem to think it is brave to throw your life away, -- when the true expression of bravery is to live a decent and caring life.


Are the "jihadist extremists" forcing people to convert to Islam? I don't think so.


What is there for the "moderates" to shout about? There is no point in blaming Pope for the actions of IRA or Tony blair.


I think the above expression applies to all those who were cowered into silence when GWB had claimed that God had guided him in attacking Iraq for having WMD. No point in bringing moderates into it.    


FYI, the above quoted 2:256 is applied in the Qur'an in both direction (into or out of Islam).

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:49AM #52
Ibn
Posts: 4,788

Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:28AM, StephenK.Adams wrote:

 


Let me finish with this universal truth.  Any religion that must use force to keep or attract new converts, by this very action, they disqualify themselves of the authenticity that they perceive that they deserve.  If you cannot keep or attract converts to your religion voluntarily, you are a failure before you even start.  



I agree.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 10:41AM #53
BDboy
Posts: 5,449

Jun 8, 2012 -- 3:59PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


 



From SKA


Maybe they voluntarily join Islam but unless they are totally blind, or not willing to face the truth, they soon find out that coercion and violence is the norm in Islam.  



 


>>>>>>>>> Well similar things have been said during Roman era about early Christians. The bottomline is Islam is the fastest growing religion in western world while a good number of western countries have troops in many Muslim majority countries.


NOT exactly a good "Brand" to sell to average western person. Despite this "Situation" people who are reading the scriptures of Islam on their own (Not depending some Radio talk show jock to define Islam for them) they are finding Islam differently than how main stream media are portraying Islam.


Click here to see a sample of people who are reverting to Islam in the west. As far as I know not only these people stayed in Islam since they accepted Islam, they ALSO devoted themselves into making people aware of Islam.


So the "Ground reality" is a little different than how you see it.


Lastly had Coercion and violence been a "Norm" of authentic Islam, Europe would have been an Islamic continent. A major portion of Europe was lead by Muslim for around 800 years but we do not find any major event of mass "Forced conversion". It is more like an Euro fiction than reality.


 


 


Jun 8, 2012 -- 3:59PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


 Please sir, let us not mince words.   Do we kill followers of Islam like they systematically kill Christians who try to practise their faith in an Islamic country?  Do we ostracize Christians who disavow such tactics like Islam does?  While many of the other religions have terrible pasts, as did Christianity, at least we have not remained in the dark ages with most if not all of our behaviors.



 


>>>>>>>>>> Would you be kind enough to specify WHICH "Islamic" country you are talking about? For example the there are millions of Christians living in Egypt Since Jesus walked among us and today the richest Egyptian living in it is a Christian (Not a Muslim).


I do NOT claim Muslims are perfect but the RELIGION itself does NOT support forcing people into religion. [ Source: Al Qur'an 2:256]


Christians in the other hand have a lot of Muslim, Hindu and Jewish blood on their hands (Also Catholic and protestant blood). Even today most wars have Christian people involved in them.


Jun 8, 2012 -- 3:59PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


I am left with the distinct impression that Islam looks at our democratic ideals and tolerance of other beliefs as a form of weakness that they can easily exploit.  I caution you not to be taken in by selective references to the value of Islam while they scrupulously avoid facing the unvarnished truth.   



>>>>>>>>>>>>> Islam is NOT a person. Rather a faith follwed by around 1.7 billion people all over the world. Each community have their views on west and democracy. While there are few differences in religious matters but political view are VERY different.


You are most welcome to have an "Opinion" of Islam and it is your God given right. However you CANNOT have your "Own facts" on Islam. Most of what I see in your post are popular fiction about Islam.


Lot like the "Ground zero mosque" movement. Where NO ONE ever proposed to have a mosque built on "Ground zero" but Americans were deceived to believe some did. So the whole nation engaged in a dumb debate about it where there was NOTHING to debate about.


Jun 8, 2012 -- 3:59PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


I tend not to send lengthy submissions on the assumption, which I believe is valid, that others simply skip over long winded responses.  I try to follow this advice:   A problem that is well stated, and laconic also, is half solved.  Yours with kind regards also.


I





>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I do not claim all Muslims (Followers of Islam) are perfect little angels. They have their own issues. For example, Iraqis never attacked America despite a tough sanction on them for a decade but they were bombed and murdered for NO reason. Based on most estimate around 500K-600K innocent civilians died because of this "Very dumb invasion".


Now it really looks comical when you know this unnecessary war was carried out by democratic countries (Countries with functioning democracies). As per definition it had people's support in it. But most of us know how people were fed "Crap" as credible information to justify the immoral war.


I do not blame Christians for it. Because I have too many Christian friends who are very much against this war and took great amount of risks to protest against it.


I would request to give specific examples of your concerns, so we can discuss them. I feel you are sincere but do not have information about teachings of Islam. Also seen a trend of mixing politics with religion.


I can help you and others with information and let all readers make up their minds.


May peace be unto you. :-)

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 11:54AM #54
BDboy
Posts: 5,449

Jun 12, 2012 -- 5:07AM, Miraj wrote:


The actual opening words of the Qur'an, Surah al Fatiha:


In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. 
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world; 
Most Gracious, Most Merciful; 
Master of the Day of Judgment. 
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. 
Show us the straight way, 
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.


For devout Muslims, the Qur'an is the Word of God, not merely inspired by Him.  As the majority of Muslims, called Sunnis, have no central authority, there is a great deal of debate about what the Qur'an really says.




 


>>>>>>> It is lot like Lord's prayer in Christian faith.


Hi, I am a muslim member joining in this forum for the first time. I have been a member of Beliefnet for around 10 years and joined in many discussions.


I understand there are some concerns about Islam and some genuine questions. Feel free to ask anything you like. All questions and concerns are welcome!!


I used to argue with Miraj the most but we still get along fine. So really feel free. :-)


The noble Qur'an states.....


.....nearest among them in love to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.


[ Source: Al Qur'an 5:82]*


 


* This is the most popular English translation of the Qur'an by Yusuf Ali. Please click here to see some "Common grounds" among Christians and Muslims.


May peace be unto you. :-)

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 1:43PM #55
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 1,793

Jun 11, 2012 -- 1:09PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Dear Stephen (no sarcasm intended as none was intended earlier),


I kindly ask you not to guess my intentions (sarcasm or otherwise) when it is evident you are still figuring me out. My intentions are sincere. It would have also been courteous to read my previous post addressed to you in its entirety, even though it is a tad longer. Some of your ill-aimed responses could have been pre-empted.



Hello Lilwabbit:



Unfortunately life forces all of us to guess at ones motives, especially when an obvious one is used such as ---- Stephen dear.  There are no ill-aimed responses that could have been per-empted in my submission to you.  What there is kind sir, is a reluctance on your part to face reality.  Your fear of Islam is palpable sir.  I commend you for leaving the Islamic state that butchered your family and friends of the bahi religion (sorry if I have mispelled the name), if you had not, you probably wouldn't be alive today to communicate with me at all.



I do not expect you to agree with the following words or even understand them, but let me assure you sir that fear has the potential to deflect human behavior.  The fear inflicted on your psyche by the psychopaths who are known as Jihadists, is so profound as to have you denying the existence of that fear itself.  


Do you not see the irrationality of telling us that you are of the Bahai faith and then telling us that you believe that the Qu'aran contains the ultimate unvarnished truth about reality.  By your own words you have told us that the Islamic Jihadists slaughtered your family and friends.


I respectfully ask you to print this submission and look at it 10 years from now.  That time schedule is not exact of course, but I do believe it is inevitable that the Islamic hijacking that the Jihadists have achieved will come to an end and at that time your fear of them will subside or perhaps even be eliminated. 



At that time you will wonder how you could have said some of the irrational things that you have uttered in these submissions and you will finally know that your words were the result of an horrendous level of fear that the Jihadists have successfully brainwashed you with.       



I hope you will take heed of my advice but under the circumstances that finds the fear of the Jihadists still strongly ensconced inside your brain, I doubt if you will do so.  In any event, I do wish you the  best in this miraculous journey that we call life. 



 

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:34PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:



LilWabbit




 If I understood computer technology better, I would have edited out the last line or two above.

We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 4:03PM #56
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 1,793

Hello:



I am against all forms of mythical religions and that includes Christianity.   I have been posting in this particular site for more than 10 years.  I am attracted to the large number of brilliant people who frequent this site.  Nevertheless, my condemnation of the Catholic branch of Christianity, has seen me at times, become the focus of a group attack in defense of Catholicism. 


Apparently, a number of Muslims have come out of the woodwork to help Lilwabbit defend Islamism.  Whether that is coincidental or it has happened by invitation will remain unknown to me.  The point is that I will only respond to Lilwabbit as I am not interested in spending one hundred hours pouring over various responses and parsing them down to their minimums and responding in kind.  I apologize if that sounds like I am ignoring certain submissions but --- c'est la vie.   

We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 4:30PM #57
BDboy
Posts: 5,449

Jun 12, 2012 -- 4:03PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


Hello:



I am against all forms of mythical religions and that includes Christianity.   I have been posting in this particular site for more than 10 years.  I am attracted to the large number of brilliant people who frequent this site.  Nevertheless, my condemnation of the Catholic branch of Christianity, has seen me at times, become the focus of a group attack in defense of Catholicism. 


Apparently, a number of Muslims have come out of the woodwork to help Lilwabbit defend Islamism.  Whether that is coincidental or it has happened by invitation will remain unknown to me.  The point is that I will only respond to Lilwabbit as I am not interested in spending one hundred hours pouring over various responses and parsing them down to their minimums and responding in kind.  I apologize if that sounds like I am ignoring certain submissions but --- c'est la vie.   




 


>>>>> Exactly.


Just a little clarification. Lilwabbit happens to be a "Bahai" (NOT a Muslim) who happens to know a lot about Islam. He felt since you are discussing Islam, some Muslim presence will be "Proper".


I have been a member of B-net for around 10 years and this is the first time here for me.


Maybe it is a chance for most of you to learn about Islam from Muslims. Since most Americans learn about Islam from people with no or little knowledge of Islam.


Peace.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 4:33PM #58
Buggsy
Posts: 4,732

This was supposed to be a thread on new age "I am God" mumbo-jumbo but took a different path sometime midway on . . . quickly reminding me that - no I'm not God! and neither is anything else God.  God is a concept.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 7:08PM #59
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

None of us are defending "Islamism" (whatever the heck that is).  We don't normally travel in packs, lol, but, we were invited here by our dear friend Lilwabbit (a Baha'i) to correct wrongful notions about the faith of Islam that were being offered as truth.  Attacking is not our intention; disseminating facts where there is ignorance is why we came.


A  legitimate interest in truth requires a desire for honesty and the courage to seek it.


Jun 12, 2012 -- 4:03PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


Hello:



I am against all forms of mythical religions and that includes Christianity.   I have been posting in this particular site for more than 10 years.  I am attracted to the large number of brilliant people who frequent this site.  Nevertheless, my condemnation of the Catholic branch of Christianity, has seen me at times, become the focus of a group attack in defense of Catholicism. 


Apparently, a number of Muslims have come out of the woodwork to help Lilwabbit defend Islamism.  Whether that is coincidental or it has happened by invitation will remain unknown to me.  The point is that I will only respond to Lilwabbit as I am not interested in spending one hundred hours pouring over various responses and parsing them down to their minimums and responding in kind.  I apologize if that sounds like I am ignoring certain submissions but --- c'est la vie.   





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:08PM #60
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 1,793

Jun 12, 2012 -- 7:08PM, Miraj wrote:


None of us are defending "Islamism" (whatever the heck that is).  We don't normally travel in packs, lol, but, we were invited here by our dear friend Lilwabbit (a Bahai') to correct wrongful notions about the faith of Islam that were being offered as truth.  Attacking is not our intention; disseminating facts where there is ignorance is why we came.



From SKA


Hello MiraJ:



Thanks for your honesty.  You call it whatever you want.  If it looks like a pack of wolves and smells like a pack of wolves then it just might be a pack of wolves.  What's the matter, are you guys afaid of a one on one exchange?  Do you prefer to gang up on anyone who doesn't agree with you 100%?  I am about to answer a submission by a brilliant former Catholic person who frequents this site.  Goodbye for now.



From Miraj


A  legitimate interest in truth requires a desire for honesty and the courage to seek it.


Jun 12, 2012 -- 4:03PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:





Fine, tell me this then sir.  Do you agree with the World Trade Center terrorists reciting --- Alla akbar --- as they disintegrated along with a couple of thousand other human beings?  Please don't waste my time telling me that they weren't of the Islamic faith.  They certainly weren't Christians.

We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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