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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 8:44PM #101
bigbear6161
Posts: 4,047
But transcendent experiences are commonplace across a wide array of religious traditions and cultures. Such experiences seem part of the fabric of what it is to be a human being. I'm not sure what alien abduction experiences mean. They seem rather far out even if we acknowledge they are remotely possible. But transcendent experiences are shared by millions. And nothing about the experiences require any sort of supernatural anything. Only that within humans such experiences frequently happen, and when they do God Language can be used to convey something of the experience.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 2:36AM #102
Ibn
Posts: 4,951

Jun 15, 2012 -- 4:54AM, Ibn wrote:

What's wrong with calling such human being a "god" (but not God)?



Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:59AM, Buggsy wrote:

There's nothing wrong with it.  It's simply meaningless or at best - wishful thinking.


Not at all if you take into account the purpose for which human being was created; as explained earlier on. It seems as if you have completely ignored that explanation.


Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:59AM, Buggsy wrote:

It's like calling ourselves titans or angels.


Why should anyone call us or call ourselves titans or angels? What is common between titans or angels and human beings? 


Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:59AM, Buggsy wrote:

It doesn't add anything to life other than perhaps, puffing oneself up or dressing up in fancy vestments to impress the gullible and appear more than what you really are.


To deny the purpose for which we were created and live life according to your fancy is in fact puffing oneself or living like a self proclaimed God, disregarding the interests of other human beings and of the State. 

Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:59AM, Buggsy wrote:

Desmond Morris said it best - 'naked apes'


That is because he does not understand purpose of creation of man except to be a naked ape. That is degrading ability of a human being and disregarding the progress a human being has made thus far.





I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 10:04AM #103
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 1,949

From ibn's post # 102:



Not at all if you take into account the purpose for which human being was created; as explained earlier on. It seems as if you have completely ignored that explanation.



From Myself:



After grappling with the purpose of life as indicated above, for the past 74 years, It is certainly intriguing to discover that you are in possession of such knowledge.  Would you be so kind as to copy and paste that explanation in here, or at the very least, tell us the number of your submission that you are referring to with the words:  "earlier on" 

We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 4:14PM #104
adamcro-magnon
Posts: 1,144

The purpose?  What purpose?  There are many purposes, purposes at odds one with another and many validations - through myth, ritual and endless ratiocinations (usually self-justifying and circular arguments) - all bound up in various, well-packaged and comforting teleologies.  Rather like a recipe.  Mrs Beaton said - first find your rabbit; thereafter you may skin it, butcher it properly and dress it up in a recipe.  Ideologies are the same: they come with a purpose and it is up to ego, the self, to decide which one to buy into.  And today it is the supermarket.  How super!  Catholics have their catechism: Why did God make us?  The answer is: God made us to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world/life in order to be happy with Him in the next.


If that floats your boat, well and good.  (I am alas a landlubber).   Secular ideologies - Capitalism, Liberalism, Nazism, Communism, Fascism also have their respective teleologies.  They may well link, where feasible, to religious ones so that a package of meaning and purpose is provided for the weary traveller in this world and in (luggage allowance permitting) the next.  (You're not permitted to smuggle drugs into Heaven - or Hell.)


But some travellers are obdurate and obstinate and do not buy into those teleologies which speak of purposes and ends, which are in some other world.  And in no way will these be easily convinced of the validity and genuine style of thinking and feeling which attends concerns, revealed to us by privileged knowers, about some other world.  


The most one can expect is that people are free to follow their different and differing ends.  I think Isaiah Berlin was quite right.  We live today in a pluralist world where there are, for good or for ill, no common aims and ultimate purposes.  This must grate uncomfortably on the religious mindset or the mindset, secular or religious, of one far removed from the liberal equation for usually such people speak of ‘truth’ and when people speak and write of ‘truth’ it is often a sure indication that those others want to see their end or their purpose, their ‘truth’ dominant over all others.  Truth like the monotheistic God is jealous and will allow of no false idols.  Their way of thinking and feeling, their way of perceiving, their ethic of cognition is the one which must fain attract us by its obvious wonder and stupefy us by its obvious truths.  It doesn’t always, though - does it?


This liberal, capitalist world, pluralist to boot, is beset with travails and turmoils because the generality of peoples within the western democracies do not wish to see or hear of anything anti-liberal enshrined in the laws of the land.  Any religious understanding of the human condition comes in for the stick so that, for example, today in the UK there is an almighty wrangle going on about the desire by our current government to see gay marriages (no holding the aspirations down to just civil partnerships) recognized in law.  The Christian Churches (Anglican and Catholic) are in high dudgeon and joining them is a number of Islamic groups.  It would appear to them to be the end of the world as they know it.  But they have been told they will simply have to get over it.  Will they?  The obdurate amongst the faithful stick to God’s purpose for mankind whereas the more wily in religion try to appeal to a common denominator, somehow inside and outside religion at the same time.    That does not work either.  Equal in their insistence and instransigence is the opposing lobby which wishes to see gay marriages on the statute books.  How right was Berlin?


Today is a Lilliputian world of floating islands, each going where it will, sometimes taking others in tow, sometimes colliding, sometimes dumping on an island or two below them yet always aware and open, dazzlingly so, to the truths of their own teleology.  Travellers tales of yore which used to amaze us and with their strange wonders would hold us in thrall around the warm and insulated security of our own so comforting hearth occupy now the dusty shelves of desuetude.  And there, they will remain.  For some it is now the glorious emporium of take-your-pick comestibles; for others the dodgems at the not so fun fair.  And some there are who scowl and sulk.  Others there are who steal by stealth and skulk.  Purpose indeed!



Adam Cro-Magnon

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 5:03PM #105
bigbear6161
Posts: 4,047
Adam,
I think we each need to forge purpose or meaning into our lives. Existance may be absurd but the quest for meaning seems to be at the center of each person's life. Camus' paradox of the absurd comes to mind. But we oughtn't settle for other people's teleologies to be forced upon us by either church or state.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 6:25PM #106
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,907

Jun 18, 2012 -- 5:03PM, bigbear6161 wrote:

Adam, I think we each need to forge purpose or meaning into our lives. Existance may be absurd but the quest for meaning seems to be at the center of each person's life. Camus' paradox of the absurd comes to mind. But we oughtn't settle for other people's teleologies to be forced upon us by either church or state.



Why not?  I buy ready made suits which are just as serviceable as tailored ones.


Indeed, selecting a good teleology refined over many generations by some of the best minds ever born seems like a no brainer when compared to one I cobble together myself in my basement.


I mean, really, what sublime works of art have been inspired by absurdism?  Waiting for Godot, maybe.  But the characters can't summon enough energy to kill themselves.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 6:51PM #107
Ibn
Posts: 4,951

Jun 18, 2012 -- 10:04AM, StephenK.Adams wrote:


From ibn's post # 102:



Not at all if you take into account the purpose for which human being was created; as explained earlier on. It seems as if you have completely ignored that explanation.



From Myself:



After grappling with the purpose of life as indicated above, for the past 74 , years, It is certainly intriguing to discover that you are in possession of such knowledge.  Would you be so kind as to copy and paste that explanation in here, or at the very least, tell us the number of your submission that you are referring to with the words:  "earlier on" 



Post No. 88:


To me "image of God" is not the same as you are thinking as "image of God". I am not talking about a picture, photo, or an idol as image of God. To you it is image of essence of God (which is not known to man on earth) but to me "image of God" is image of attributes of God known to man on earth that he can copy to an extent. Anyone who does that can be a mini god but anyone who does not cannot be mini god as he is not acting as a deputy of God on earth. 


Man is Khaliph (Caliph), deputy, viceroy, and to a certain extent, in terms of attributes, an image of God on earth.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:04PM #108
bigbear6161
Posts: 4,047

Seraph,


Godot, The Stranger, La Lecon, Rhinoceros, No Exit, Les Moches... And dont forget all of the works of Kafka. I'd say l'absurdite has a darned good resume.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:35PM #109
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 1,949

From Adam Cro-Magnon's Submission # 104



If that floats your boat, well and good.  (I am alas a landlubber).




From Myself


As fine a turn of phrase as these tired old eyes have perceived.  Way to go Adam!!!!Smile




We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:44PM #110
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 1,949

Jun 18, 2012 -- 6:25PM, SeraphimR wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 5:03PM, bigbear6161 wrote:

Adam, I think we each need to forge purpose or meaning into our lives. Existance may be absurd but the quest for meaning seems to be at the center of each person's life. Camus' paradox of the absurd comes to mind. But we oughtn't settle for other people's teleologies to be forced upon us by either church or state.



Why not?  I buy ready made suits which are just as serviceable as tailored ones.


Indeed, selecting a good teleology refined over many generations by some of the best minds ever born seems like a no brainer when compared to one I cobble together myself in my basement.





When Frederick Banting put forward his desire to try to conquer the Sugar Disease (Diabetes) the resident Professor at the Toronto University, Dr. McCleod, is supposed to have said these words.  "What makes you think, with all due respect mind you, that you, a country family Doctor, can solve this problem when millions of brilliant scientists have spent their entire lives going up one blind alley after another."


To which Frederick Banting replied:  "It could be that these brilliant Scientists did not try the experiment that I am suggesting.   I mean, Dr. McCleod, have you yourself done the experiment that I am suggesting."   When Dr. McCleod answered --- No, --- the race was on and as they say, --- the rest is history.  



In Dr. Banting's case, as Winston Churchill would be wont to say:  --- Some cobbling!!!  Some basement!!!




We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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