Jun 2, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kemmer wrote:

Me personally i believe that the saddest thing about jw is the fact that they will lose there salvation and will be joining the devil in hell, these are good people who just for some reason swallow all the nonsense this evil organisation preach, they have made so much money of the backs of there followers and fly about in private jets etc etc, they are no different than this false money preachers that you see on tv. All we can do is pray that we can get through to them.

People who wax positively giddy at the thought of non co-religionists burning everlastingly in a "hell" have always disgusted me.

If there is such a thing as a loving God, "hell" cannot exist, regardless of what some uber-righteous people cobble together from "scripture". 

Kemmer - Thank you again. 

Of course, the posters above are giving false information - we have no private jets and the governing body at Bethel take the same vow of poverty that all at Bethel take.   Nor do we make 'so much money' as they imply.   Having served at Bethel myself, and lived with the governing body, I know the above posters are making false charges first hand.

You are correct in ignoring these false charges - and zeroing in on their backing the Satanic doctrine of eternal torment in Hell Fire.  

The Bible agrees with scientific research as to what happens at death - the dead are indeed conscious of nothing at all - or course they are not tormented!

(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

My mom had a nervous breakdown because her 'Pastor' (Dutch Reformed Church) told her that her father was in Hell Fire, since he had stopped going to church and boldly exposed religion as "a snare and a racket."    He was right - of course, he did not know about us. 

When my mom learned the truth that the dead are not conscious of anything, it was such a relief from her personal torment over this God-dishonoring doctrine!

BTW - on thread theme, it seems understanding truth did mean 2000 and not 1975 - however, we have never chosen any expected date since our 1975 error - like scientists, we do learn from our mistakes!

The important thing is to remain humble and willing to change beliefs if good research brings errors to light - and this is true in both scientific research and Biblical research.

In fact, this is why I love science and my religion so much!

Jun 6, 2012 -- 6:17AM, Newtonian wrote:

May 31, 2012 -- 6:56PM, woodzz wrote:

1971 "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah" p.216 #9

"Shortly, within our twentieth century, the 'battle in the day of Jehovah' will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom."

 

Woodzz

Woodzz - That was the 1975 error - hence 'shortly.'

Ah-hem, excuse me but "shortly" can mean anything to your governing body from a minute to over 100 years, so....

Perhaps they meant 1975 but notice they don't say "by 1975" but "within our twentieth century," which I'm sure would have been used to justify 1985 had it happened then, and which makes the year 2000 as the last year that could be "within our twentieth century."

Yes, the quotes I've posted most certainly point to the year 2000 and I'm sure many JWs took them to mean 2000.  With your history of date-setting (false though it has ALWAYS been) I'm equally as sure JWs are still looking for a date when they read each new publication.

Remember also that they didn't change the generation teaching until 1995 so all through the 70's and 80's it was calculated on the lifetime of people living in 1914, I'm not sure when they changed it to babies born in 1914 (do you know when it was?) but here's a list of the ever on-going changes:

To end in 1914 - 36 1/2 year generation from 1878

To end by 1950 - 30-40 year generation from 1914

To end 1960's - 70 year generation

To end 1975 - 70-80 year life expectancy of 15 year old in 1914

To end early 80's - 70-80 year life expectancy of 10 year old in 1914

To end by 1989 - 75 year life expectancy of baby in 1914

To end early 2000's - maximum lifespan of baby in 1914

To end 'soon' - length of generation unspecified

To end within two overlapping lifetimes - Sometime before the year 2114. Of course the same reasoning could be used to extend this to 3 overlapping lifetimes.

Source: www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/generation.ph...

With this build-up going on, I'm surprised you even questioned what Understanding said about expecting the end by the year 2000.

Woodzz

Woodzz - Accuracy of statement is why I called Understanding on his inaccurate portrayal of our beliefs. 

As for generation, you have not continued doing Biblical research as we have. 

On what Scriptural basis do we consider overlapping generations - do you know?

And what of these Scriptures - what does generation mean there?

(Psalm 72:5) They will fear you as long as there is a sun, And before the moon for generation after generation.

NW footnote: Lit., “generation of generations.”

I.e. literally singular generation of plural generations.

(Isaiah 51:8) For the moth will eat them up just as if a garment, and the clothes moth will eat them up just as if wool. But as for my righteousness, it will prove to be even to time indefinite, and my salvation to unnumbered generations.”

NW footnote on "unnumbered generations" - Lit., “to generation of generations.”

Again singular generation of plural generations.

Now, I am not seeking to prove anything here except that we are doing Biblical research on biblical usage of "generation."   However, you have not posted any Biblical research to enlighten anyone on this subject.

Newt,

I don't think you really believe this is about someone not dotting their i's or crossing their t's.  I've expected you to finally admit there was more than enough reason for JWs to consider the end would come by the year 2000.  The publications may not have said 2000 specifically, but as I pointed out, that would be the last year that could fit the description of being within the twentieth century and they certainly used that terminology.

Step back for a moment and consider the build up in the minds of the people feeding off the WT publications, especially those who were being geared up for the end to come in 1975.  Look again at what they are being subjected to:

To end in 1914 - 36 1/2 year generation from 1878

To end by 1950 - 30-40 year generation from 1914

To end 1960's - 70 year generation

To end 1975 - 70-80 year life expectancy of 15 year old in 1914

To end early 80's - 70-80 year life expectancy of 10 year old in 1914

To end by 1989 - 75 year life expectancy of baby in 1914

To end early 2000's - maximum lifespan of baby in 1914

To end 'soon' - length of generation unspecified

To end within two overlapping lifetimes - Sometime before the year 2114. Of course the same reasoning could be used to extend this to 3 overlapping lifetimes.

Why are you allowing yourself to be tossed about from one teaching to another on this?  Is your congregational arrangement NOT producing Christians mature enough not to be so changeable and so easily influenced by others on matters of doctrine?  In 1995 were your perceptive powers not trained enough to distinguish a wrong teaching when you saw one?  Or was it your leaders' perceptive powers that were NOT being guided by God's spirit when they decided Jesus wasn't talking about a generation of anointed Christians but about contemporary wicked people?

Insight 2:  Maturity:

The state of being full grown, ripe, complete, as determined by a standard. (See PERFECTION.) The Bible provides the standard for ascertaining what constitutes spiritual maturity (completeness). According to this standard, a mature Christian is one who is not a spiritual babe, often changeable and easily led astray or influenced by others in matters of doctrine. (Eph 4:11-14) Since his perceptive powers are trained, he is able to distinguish both right and wrong. He does not need to be taught elementary things. (Heb 5:11–6:2) He is guided, not by worldly wisdom, but by God’s spirit.—1Co 2:6, 10-13, ftn.

Never does the Bible speak about degrees or stages of spiritual maturity or adulthood. However, just as a person continues to grow in knowledge, experience, and discernment after becoming an adult, the mature Christian likewise continues to make progress. Trials that he has can strengthen his faith and endurance. Wrote the disciple James: “Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, knowing as you do that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that you may be complete [literally, perfect] and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything.” (Jas 1:2-4) Similarly, as adults will vary in physical aspects and in mental abilities and talents, so mature Christians may vary in certain qualities, some being notable in some aspect, such as knowledge, judgment, courage, or generosity; others in another. (Compare 1Co 7:7; 12:4-11, 27-31.) Thus, in considering maturity, it is necessary to take into consideration that special abilities or talents are not the things that determine whether one is a mature Christian or not.

The entire congregational arrangement, with its apostles, prophets, evangelizers, shepherds, and teachers, served to produce mature Christians, spiritual adults. (Eph 4:11-14; compare Col 1:28, 29; 4:12, 13.) Obviously, then, those serving as shepherds and teachers had to be spiritually mature persons, not babes. However, more than spiritual adulthood was required of one appointed as an overseer or a ministerial servant. (1Ti 3:1-9, 12, 13; Tit 1:5-9) For example, one of the requirements for an overseer was that he be “a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness.” (1Ti 3:4) Thus, a man could be mature in certain respects from a spiritual viewpoint, and yet, if his children were rebellious and uncontrollable, he would not qualify for the position of overseer.

Woodzz

Jun 6, 2012 -- 9:54PM, understandingtruth wrote:

Woodzz,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts.  I don't give any power to Newts words.  I have given an honest testimony & it stands as it is.  You have given direct evidance that suports what I have stated, thanks!

Since pressenting the facts seems to be rejected, I have decided that the best way to vanquish the Devil is to take his power away through prayer.  Newt can deny all he wants but I am going to take some time to be with my Father in private & seek His council & favor in these matters.  I shall be gone for at least a week or two and I may do some fasting as particular demons are only vanquished through this process.  I have had victory through this process before & God willing you will witness His Work once more.

Anyone reading this post who would like to join me can do so every morning from 7-8am in prayer to the Lord for Newt.  I am going to be very focussed in my prayers and I will ask God to give power & authority to those of you still here doing battle.  I am going to stay focussed in my prayers on Newt & I am going to ask God to either open his eye's, ears & heart to acknowledge that JW's have been false to Gods Word or to simply silence him so he cannot mislead the innocent.

May you all be Blessed in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit!!

 

God Bless! 

Thank you, Understanding.  My prayers certainly are with you and for Newt and all those caught in the snare of the WT Org and thus separated from Jesus and excluded from an intimate relationship with our heavenly Father.  With all the emphasis they put on the name "Jehovah" the one name they can't call him is "Abba!"

The two other occurrences are in Paul’s letters, at Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6. In both places the word is used in connection with Christians called to be spirit-begotten sons of God and indicates the intimacy of their relationship with their Father.[it-1 p.13]

Woodzz