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Locked: God is ONE, and not three
3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 11:18AM #51
Ed.W
Posts: 9,446

Jun 2, 2012 -- 9:45AM, Adelphe wrote:


Jun 2, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


What "the NT"?  What's a "the NT"?  Scripture doesn't say anything about "the NT."


Nursery games now.


I accept your total and abject surrender.





I accepted your surrender long ago.  Just playing by the same rules you set in the nursery game now. 




My thoughts exactly.  Maybe we should have said, "I accept your surrender," long ago to whomever uttered the childish rebuttal that the w-o-r-d Trinity isn't even in the Bible.  For that matter, the word "God" isn't even in the Bible, as it was not written in English.  (However I think "Gawd" still appears in the KJV.)


However where the word Trinity could have appeared in the Bible, it was from those three Greek words that Discerner posted and rather than Trinity, the word Godhead or divinity was chosen by translators. 


"Trinity" is too specific in number to be a fair translation for theiotēs, theotēs, theios.


What it proves, Mario, is that there is a Greek word that implies the nature of God as being more than a "singularity".  That it is translated as "divinity" in its adjective form is appropriate.  Somewhat like royalty brings to mind more than one single being.  It suggests not only the Queen but also her family.


All Adelphe needs to add to make the following more readable is an 's:


The Godhead's power has bestowed on us everything necessary;


partakers of the Godhead's nature;





Jun 2, 2012 -- 10:48AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Jun 2, 2012 -- 6:29AM, Adelphe wrote:

The word "Godhead" is interesting, isn't it.  Let's look at where it's used:


By Paul, Acts 17:29 - So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think [the Godhead] is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination.


By Peter, 2 Pet 1:3 - I can pray this because [the Godhead] power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence.


Again, 2 Pet 1:4 - Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of [the Godhead] nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire.


I wonder why specifically "Godhead" was chosen here rather than "God"?


"don't think the Godhead is...an image made by human skill and imagination"


"the Godhead power"


"the Godhead nature"


What do you think?


I think that Discerner, at least (see post #40), presented the full picture of the three Greek words that the KJV (and other translations derived from the KJV) translates with "Godhead" (theiotēs, theotēs, theios). 


But while the first two are nouns (feminine, to be accurate), the third, theios, is an adjective, so it is proper to translate it with the abstract English noun "Godhead" ONLY when it is used as a noun, which is obtained by using the adjective in the neuter gender, preceded by the article (to theion), and the ONLY case for this, in the NT, is in Acts 17:29.


So the expressions used by the lady in the above "translations" ...


"the Godhead power" [2 Pet 1:3]


"the Godhead nature" [2 Pet 1:4]


... are totally improper, artificial and misleading. The ONLY proper and acceptable ones are:


"the divine power" (2 Pet 1:3)


"the divine nature" (2 Pet 1:4)


... which is adopted even but the KJV ...


MdS




Mario, I'm not sure how you can see our "trinitarian colored glasses" behind your....


‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 11:23AM #52
Blü
Posts: 25,265

Adelphe


Just playing by the same rules you set in the nursery game now.


More false faces!  For shame!

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 12:33PM #53
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,100

Jun 2, 2012 -- 11:18AM, Ed.W wrote:

[a] ... where the word Trinity could have appeared in the Bible, it was from those three Greek words that Discerner posted and rather than Trinity, the word Godhead or divinity was chosen by translators. 


[b] "Trinity" is too specific in number to be a fair translation for theiotēs, theotēs, theios.


[c] What it proves, Mario, is that there is a Greek word that implies the nature of God as being more than a "singularity". (...)


[d] All Adelphe needs to add to make the following more readable is an 's:


The Godhead's power has bestowed on us everything necessary;


partakers of the Godhead's nature;


[a] The English word "trinity" could not have "appeared in the Bible" other than abusively, because the first time it was ever applied to the "godhead", in Greek, was the Greek word trias, which was first used by Theophilus of Antioch, about 170AD, to refer to "God, and His Word, and His wisdom".


[b] See above. The ONLY proper translations of the three above words (the last one only when used as a noun, neuter and with the article) are "godhead", or "divinity" or "divine being".


[c] This is a rather obvious and trivial comment, because the Greek adjective theios (as well as the feminine nouns theiotēs, theotēs) were born and used in the Greek speaking world way before they were used in the NT. Of course, as the Greeks were polytheists, they ALL implicitly referred to a plurality of "gods".


This, obviously, doesn't entail at all that any "plurality" in the Godhead is entailed in the use that the NT makes of those words.


[d] And why should anybody resort to such improper, artificial and misleading translation, when we already have the ONLY proper and acceptable one ...


"the divine power" (2 Pet 1:3)


"the divine nature" (2 Pet 1:4)


... which, once again, is adopted even but the KJV?


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 2:22PM #54
Discerner
Posts: 1,722

Jun 2, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Blü wrote:

Adelphe


What "the NT"?  What's a "the NT"?  Scripture doesn't say anything about "the NT."


Nursery games now.


I accept your total and abject surrender.



"The NT" means 'the New Testament'.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 2:52PM #55
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Jun 2, 2012 -- 2:22PM, Discerner wrote:

Jun 2, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


What "the NT"?  What's a "the NT"?  Scripture doesn't say anything about "the NT."


Nursery games now.


I accept your total and abject surrender.





"The NT" means 'the New Testament'.




When you discuss anything with Blu, Discerner, you're not permitted to draw any inferences from the text of Scripture.  Unless the word itself appears in Scripture, it is repeatedly and expressly denied by Scripture.


As "the NT" doesn't appear in the text of Scripture, Scripture repeatedly and expressly denies "the NT"--therefore neither you nor he can discuss it as it simply doesn't exist.


That goes for anything (not) appearing in the text.


Follow?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 3:04PM #56
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Jun 2, 2012 -- 11:18AM, Ed.W wrote:

  For that matter, the word "God" isn't even in the Bible, as it was not written in English.  (However I think "Gawd" still appears in the KJV.)



Oh, good point(s.) 


However where the word Trinity could have appeared in the Bible, it was from those three Greek words that Discerner posted and rather than Trinity, the word Godhead or divinity was chosen by translators. 


"Trinity" is too specific in number to be a fair translation for theiotēs, theotēs, theios.


What it proves, Mario, is that there is a Greek word that implies the nature of God as being more than a "singularity".  That it is translated as "divinity" in its adjective form is appropriate.  Somewhat like royalty brings to mind more than one single being.  It suggests not only the Queen but also her family.


All Adelphe needs to add to make the following more readable is an 's:


The Godhead's power has bestowed on us everything necessary;


partakers of the Godhead's nature;



Don't know about you but I'd hardly refer to anything "Thayer" said in "Thayer's Lexicon" as he was thought by many to be "unitarian."


Here's what the NET reports, which uses Strong's Lexicon:


theios <2304>


yeiov theios

Pronunciation: thi'-os
Origin: from 2316
Reference: TDNT - 3:122,322
PrtSpch: adj
In Greek: yeiav 2, yeion 1
In NET: divine 2, deity 1
In AV: divine 2, Godhead 1
Count: 3
Definition: 1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
2a) of Christ
2b) Holy Spirit
2c) the Father
from 2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.
see GREEK for 2316


The fact remains that distinctions were made and it is the reason for them we are trying to understand.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 3:07PM #57
Discerner
Posts: 1,722

Jun 2, 2012 -- 2:52PM, Adelphe wrote:

Jun 2, 2012 -- 2:22PM, Discerner wrote:

Jun 2, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


What "the NT"?  What's a "the NT"?  Scripture doesn't say anything about "the NT."


Nursery games now.


I accept your total and abject surrender.





"The NT" means 'the New Testament'.




When you discuss anything with Blu, Discerner, you're not permitted to draw any inferences from the text of Scripture.  Unless the word itself appears in Scripture, it is repeatedly and expressly denied by Scripture.


As "the NT" doesn't appear in the text of Scripture, Scripture repeatedly and expressly denies "the NT"--therefore neither you nor he can discuss it as it simply doesn't exist.


That goes for anything (not) appearing in the text.


Follow?


Then I guess that the 'King James Bible' or the 'New International Version' does not exist. That being the case, then neither does scripture! Hmmm!


For his edification, the New Testament, or the NT, is not a quote of either words or quotes from the Bible, but rather it identifies and titles the collection of books containing scripture as being separate from those books that are contained in the Old Testament...the OT.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 3:18PM #58
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Jun 2, 2012 -- 3:07PM, Discerner wrote:

Jun 2, 2012 -- 2:52PM, Adelphe wrote:


Jun 2, 2012 -- 2:22PM, Discerner wrote:

Jun 2, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


What "the NT"?  What's a "the NT"?  Scripture doesn't say anything about "the NT."


Nursery games now.


I accept your total and abject surrender.





"The NT" means 'the New Testament'.




When you discuss anything with Blu, Discerner, you're not permitted to draw any inferences from the text of Scripture.  Unless the word itself appears in Scripture, it is repeatedly and expressly denied by Scripture.


As "the NT" doesn't appear in the text of Scripture, Scripture repeatedly and expressly denies "the NT"--therefore neither you nor he can discuss it as it simply doesn't exist.


That goes for anything (not) appearing in the text.


Follow?




Then I guess that the 'King James Bible' or the 'New International Version' does not exist. That being the case, then neither does scripture! Hmmm!


For his edification, the New Testament, or the NT, is not a quote of either words or quotes from the Bible, but rather it identifies and titles the collection of books containing scripture as being separate from those books that are contained in the Old Testament...the OT.


 




Well now, wait a minute, Discerner.  Let's think.  If I'm not mistaken the word "scripture" appears in scripture. So that="good" (btw, do NOT ask the non-Christian on this board to define "good."  Just take it on faith here that "good" means something like "whatever is NOT--or not OF--YHWH in any way."  (btw, we can say YHWH beca--WAIT!!!  No, we can't.  "YHWH" does NOT appear in scripture so is repeatedly and expressly denied.)


So moving along, most definitely "the Old Testament" and "the OT" are repeatedly and expressly denied and, therefore, simply do not exist.  You may not refer to those.


I think you're catching on, though.  You're a good study!

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 3:21PM #59
Discerner
Posts: 1,722

Good post above explaining the Greek word theios (2304). Theiotes(2305) and theotes(2320) are essentially the same. To me, it confirms the existence of Three Persons during the process of creation, for Genesis 1:1 mentions God and the Holy Spirit, or Spirit of God, moving across the face of the waters. In Genesis 1:26 it says that we were made in 'their image', meaning more than one Person.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 9:09PM #60
Utilyan
Posts: 6,098

God could be speaking "royaly".    They do the "WE, Our, Us".


 


I think you folks should consider property, the measures of who and what.  


To the measure of "God" how many?  one


to the measure of "person"  There is still a recognition of one to another.


 


Its like square peg into round hole.    Personhood, the identinty of who you are.    We humans are relative and tend to think in terms of exclusivity, seperation,  dominance and fear.


God as more supreme then the most supreme system......would already be multi-aware.... you would like one of his cells within the total of all nature.    The whole universe just a tiny doodle of a thought.


 


Even in the very act of Identifying oneself is a subtle lack of confidence that would not be present in the "divine".


 


When God says I am that I am it echoes off everyone else's life inclusively.



When you tell God you love him,   Whats said carries more divinity then you both.

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