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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 9:09AM #91
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705





Kodiacman



Posts: 2,396







May 26, 2012 -- 11:10PM, costrel wrote:




May 26, 2012 -- 9:33PM, Kodiacman wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 8:11PM, costrel wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 8:02PM, davelaw40 wrote:

who on these boards approve of slavery?-name one




Kodiacman certainly does -- see his responses to me. He even argues that a slave's right to rebel must be based on the immorality of his or her master. If the master is immoral, the slave has a right to rebel. If the master is moral, the slave does not have a right to rebel and the slave's rebellion would be inappropriate (and probably also immoral) rebellion. Adelphe and 57 also appear to at least support the slavery as described in the Hebrew Scriptures. And if 57 asserts that God has not changed his views concerning slavery, it would seem that he also supports the once-legalized form of American slavery abolished in the mid-19th century as well as current slavery practices. 




Pure unadulterated emotionalism on display... Gotta love the pure logic in this...




the sky is falling! the sky is falling! the sky is falling!




Pluuueaaasse.




Perhaps when the emotional histrionics wear thin we can calmly and rationally talk about this....or not??




I shall await to see what happens.




blessings,




kodiacman




Where am I being emotional in my previous post? And where was I not being rational or calm in explaining what I consider to be yours, Adelphe's and 57's perspectives on slavery? You don't know what your talking about. And I bet you don't even know what "histrionics" means.






C,



Your view is one that is based in emotion and not it rational logic. This is what I meant...Perhaps I was not clear enough. If one can remove the emotion from the idea of slavery my post becomes quite clear and understandable. Your conclusions do not indicate that you were able to do so....hence my response. Wink



Rather that impugn my reasoning and my verbiage, why don't you do a bit more work and demonstrate your assertion. Would you care to demonstrate that I do not know what histrionics means from the content of these posts, or is this just more "noisy ramblings" from you?



blessings,



Kodiacman

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 9:10AM #92
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705





Kodiacman



Posts: 2,396








May 27, 2012 -- 12:56AM, Blü wrote:



Kodiacman




I have a direct quote that states Yahweh does not change. Upon what basis does one view or understanding trump another view?




In the stories, Yahweh changes. We have these examples on the table -

One
Genesis 6
6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth [...]  7 So the Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created"

Two
Genesis 9
21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man [..] neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done".

Three
And the wonderful dickering scene in Genesis 18:
23 Then Abraham drew near, and said, "Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt thou then destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it?
25 Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27 Abraham answered, "Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes.
28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Wilt thou destroy the whole city for lack of five?" And he said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there."
29 Again he spoke to him, and said, "Suppose forty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of forty I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there." He answered, "I will not do it, if I find thirty there."
31 He said, "Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it."
32 Then he said, "Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it."

Four
Slavery.

Five
Being omnipotent, Yahweh can do anything he fancies whenever he likes/



On your side, we have -
A
Malachi 3
6 For I the Lord do not change.


Numerous examples show this isn't true.  It could be a deceit or a memory problem.

But the answer most consistent with the evidence is that it's another change of mind.






Blu,




I will address this further as I have time..... busy weekend.




blessings,




Kodiacman


Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 10:15AM #93
Eliascomes
Posts: 861

May 27, 2012 -- 7:20AM, Adelphe wrote:





Blü



Posts: 17,544







Kodiacman




Is it your position that Yahweh still approves of slavery?





 You can't judge a slave for he is under the control of it master; That's why God came to free us so that He can make judgement on our very own character and our works.

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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 2:39PM #94
Kwinters
Posts: 21,132

May 27, 2012 -- 9:01AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 27, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Kwinters wrote:


I propose that God had a moral obligation to condemn human slavery (the same way he condemned other things) and he had a moral obligation to ensure his followers never practiced it and actively worked to eliminate it.




Makes sense to me but do Christians see God as being subject to ANY moral obligations?Their view seems like the section in Job where he complains to God of unjust treatment and God basically says "Who do you think you are ?"




You've just inspired a new thread.  

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 8:34AM #95
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705


May 28, 2012 -- 8:14AM, Blü wrote:


Kartari


seeing an actual defense of slavery here is morally appalling.  [...] nobody can make a morally reasonable argument for slavery, in any form.  Many have tried [...] failing to maintain both logical consistency and a fuller sense of compassion and humanity.  There is simply no way to justify its acceptance in the Bible


Right on.




Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 8:35AM #96
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 27, 2012 -- 12:31PM, Kartari wrote:


Adelphe,


May 26, 2012 -- 5:54PM, Adelphe wrote:

How thoroughly disappointing coming from you, Kart.  You're usually much more open to reason and argument than that.



Adelphe... I have seen this debate before, and I know the positions of both sides.  Having been away for months (which is more due to taking on a very busy schedule, actually), the shock value in seeing an actual defense of slavery here is morally appalling.  I have always endeavored to keep an open mind and examine all sides.  But nobody can make a morally reasonable argument for slavery, in any form.  Many have tried in the past, failing to maintain both logical consistency and a fuller sense of compassion and humanity.  There is simply no way to justify its acceptance in the Bible, no matter how strongly one might desire to maintain an aura of sanctity about it.




So you're the Bronze Age leader of a Bronze Age nation with many poverty-stricken.  What do you do?


You, too, Blu.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 9:07AM #97
koolpoi
Posts: 6,330

1.How about offering jobs instead of enslaving? 


2.I would hope modern society would have exceeded the moral vision of a backward age.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 9:19AM #98
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 28, 2012 -- 9:07AM, koolpoi wrote:


1.How about offering jobs instead of enslaving?




And that's exactly what "slavery" in Israel was.  They were domestics, part of the family, contributing to the well-being of the family and reaping the benefits of the family's efforts.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 9:28AM #99
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 27, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Kwinters wrote:


I propose that God had a moral obligation to condemn human slavery (the same way he condemned other things) and he had a moral obligation to ensure his followers never practiced it and actively worked to eliminate it.




He did:


And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No foreigner or hired worker may eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”  (Ex 12)


Once circumcised, they were then part of Israel and the covenant.


From there,


“If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. For they are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God.  (Lev 25)

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 10:06AM #100
koolpoi
Posts: 6,330

May 28, 2012 -- 9:19AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 9:07AM, koolpoi wrote:


1.How about offering jobs instead of enslaving?




And that's exactly what "slavery" in Israel was.  They were domestics, part of the family, contributing to the well-being of the family and reaping the benefits of the family's efforts.




So they could quit anytime?

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