Jun 2, 2012 -- 2:26PM, woodzz wrote:

Jun 2, 2012 -- 1:45PM, marken wrote:

As Kemmer points  out, Paul  was  not  the  only one  anointed  with holy spirit  in  the  early  days  of  Chrisitanity  when  Jesus  was  gathering  out the ones  to  serve  as  his  body in heaven.  We know  that  both  Paul  and  Peter  died  as  it  was  not  yet  time  for  the  resurrection.  Jesus is  the one  who  chooses  the  replacements  to do  the  work  that  is  needed  at  any  time  period.

  I  do  take  notice  that  you  do  not  know  anyone  who  is  without  error.  why  you  wish  to  shout  the  errors  of the  past  anointed  I  do  not  know,  but  I  do  know  I  do  not  want  to  share  with  you  in it.

with  affection  from  Marken

I understand your relunctance to put their teachings to the Berean test, Marken.  They are, after all, your final authority. 

You go door to door encouraging others to examine their beliefs in the light of the Bible as the Bereans did with the apostle Paul's teachings, but you refuse to do the same with your leaders whose very claim of authority should demand that you do so for their claim is that they were appointed by Jesus in 1918 over all his earthly interests and as the sole channel of communication between God and mankind.

After all, who are YOU to quibble and mouth criticisms with those ruling over you, eh?  As they tell you themselves:

[w52 2/1 p.80 #11] The truths we are to publish are the ones provided through the discreet-slave organization, not some personal opinions contrary to what the slave has provided as timely food. Jehovah and Christ direct and correct the slave as needed, not we as individuals. If we do not see a point at first we should keep trying to grasp it, rather than opposing and rejecting it and presumptuously taking the position that we are more likely to be right than the discreet slave. We should meekly go along with the Lord’s theocratic organization and wait for further clarification, rather than balk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us and proceed to quibble and mouth our criticisms and opinions as though they were worth more than the slave’s provision of spiritual food.

Do you understand how that goes against Acts 17:11?

When they changed their teaching about the generation in 1995, did you go along with them or did you rely on the Bible as your final authority?

Woodzz

Woodzz  -  our beloved brothers of the governing body encourage us to put teachings to the Berean test, as  you put it.   Why you falsely charge marken with not doing this is beyond me - but, of course, your charge is false.

Our recent book on Acts repeats this counsel which we all strive to follow:

"Though the Beroeans were hearing something new, they were not suspicious or harshly critical; neither were they gullible. First, they listened carefully to what Paul had to say. Then, they verified what they had learned by turning to the Scriptures, which Paul had opened up to their understanding. Moreover, they diligently studied the Word of God, not just on the Sabbath, but daily. And they did so with great "eagerness of mind," devoting themselves to finding out what the Scriptures revealed in light of this new teaching. Then, they proved humble enough to make changes, for "many of them became believers." (Acts 17:12) No wonder Luke describes them as "noble-minded"!

17 Little did those Beroeans realize that the record of their reaction to the good news would be preserved in God’s Word as a shining example of spiritual noble-mindedness. They did precisely what Paul had hoped they would do and what Jehovah God wanted them to do. Likewise, it is what we encourage people to do—to examine the Bible carefully so that their faith is solidly based on God’s Word. After we become believers, though, does the need to be noble-minded come to an end? On the contrary, it becomes ever more important that we be eager to learn from Jehovah and quick to apply his teachings. In that way, we allow Jehovah to mold us and train us according to his will. (Isa. 64:8) We thus remain useful and fully pleasing to our heavenly Father." - "“Bearing Thorough Witness” About God’s Kingdom," 2009,  pp. 137-138

And so, for example, in trying to determine which definition of generation (Greek genea cp. English gene) Jehovah will use to fulfill the prophecy in Matthew 24:34 - we first acknowledge that is up to Jehovah and Jesus Christ which definition they will use.

However, our change in belief is a result of Biblical research - using the Bible as the highest authority as we always do. It involves discovery of additional definitions of Greek genea and similar words in Hebrew.

Question is, why are you posting mere rhetoric instead of posting Scripture - why aren't you using the Bible as the highest authority?

We adjusted our understanding based on Scriptural context and cross references, to wit:

"Third, holy spirit is at work in bringing Bible truths to light. (Prov. 4:18) This magazine has long been used by “the faithful and discreet slave” as the primary channel for dispensing increased light. (Matt. 24:45) For example, consider our understanding of those who make up “this generation” mentioned by Jesus. (Read Matthew 24:32-34.) To what generation did Jesus refer? The article “Christ’s Presence—What Does It Mean to You?” explained that Jesus was referring, not to the wicked, but to his disciples, who were soon to be anointed with holy spirit. Jesus’ anointed followers, both in the first century and in our day, would be the ones who would not only see the sign but also discern its meaning—that Jesus “is near at the doors.”

14

What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.—Mark 13:37." - "The Watchtower," 4/15/10, pp. 10-11.

Now some of us, like Marken, simply wait on Jehovah for further light - the matter is sufficiently covered Scripturally and they are satisfied - which is fine and good.

I personally, however, am  a doubting Thomas type.   So I believe the leadings of the holy spirit has led me to research this matter further - Biblical research, of course - as in Acts 17:11.

Of course, I would start  with references we cite above, e.g.:

(Exodus 1:5, 6) . . .And all the souls who issued out of Jacob’s upper thigh came to be seventy souls, but Joseph was already in Egypt. ⁶ Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.

What definition of generation is used here?  It involves overlapping generations, which you ridicule but is clearly Scriptural. 

However, from my independent research I have gone further.   The Bible gives other examples where the definition of a word or words involving a time period before judgment and/or death can have meanings involving a shorter or longer time period.

I will post on these and additional Scriptural cross references, in harmony with my personally applying our beloved governing body's encouragement above to apply Acts 17:11 - in my next post.

Woodzz - As I am going to our District Convention tomorrow in Jackson, Mississippi - this is likely to be my last post until I come back.   So you will have time to reflect on why Jonah was not a false prophet - and, more important, why Nineveh was not destroyed in 40 days.   You will have time to consider the context and cross references and see how this might apply to the current apparent "slowness" Jehovah's 'prophets' (definition: proclaimers) have experienced during this generation, whatever that turns out to mean.

Here is one of the verses I found in my personal Bible reading where in Hebrew a singular generation can include multiple generations:

(Isaiah 51:8) For the moth will eat them up just as if a garment, and the clothes moth will eat them up just as if wool. But as for my righteousness, it will prove to be even to time indefinite, and my salvation to unnumbered generations.”

Now, we are currently experiencing "unnumbered generations" in this generation - but does that have any basis in the literal Hebrew?   Indeed it does!

NW footnote:Lit., “to generation of generations.”

That is a singular generation of multiple, unnumbered generations!

Indeed, the other Hebrew word used in this verse is "ohlam" and is translated "time indefinite"
 because one of its definitions is "hidden or concealed time!"

Well, personal study is not meant to take the place of the slave's giving us food at the proper time - it is meant to confirm those spiritual meals are good.

Well, what generation will turn out to mean is indeed olam to us - it is hidden of concealed time to us. 

To me this is humbling - and studying the reasons why Jehovah has 'delayed' judgment in the past - i.e. Jehovah's actual personality - is so heartwarming to me!   True, our impertect expectations are humbling to us - as well it should be.  

But the most important thing all this research leads to is additional reasons to praise our loving Creator - Jehovah God!

And, so, now, I will prepare my heart for the district convention tomorrow where we will consider much Scriptural counsel as to ways we can Safeguard our hearts!

Hi Newt,

Marken has made it clear that her faith is totally in what the men on the governing body tell her to believe.  You also did that when you changed your application of scripture to reflect how they apply it, so did MrJordan.  The WT Org negates Acts 17:11 by telling you not to disagree with them and that if you're going to study the scriptures, you better end up with what they are telling you the scriptures say.  What I've already posted shows that is so, but I'll post it again.  It appealed to marken.  Do you believe your more recent book has changed this teaching?

[w52 2/1 p.80 #11] The truths we are to publish are the ones provided through the discreet-slave organization, not some personal opinions contrary to what the slave has provided as timely food. Jehovah and Christ direct and correct the slave as needed, not we as individuals. If we do not see a point at first we should keep trying to grasp it, rather than opposing and rejecting it and presumptuously taking the position that we are more likely to be right than the discreet slave. We should meekly go along with the Lord’s theocratic organization and wait for further clarification, rather than balk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us and proceed to quibble and mouth our criticisms and opinions as though they were worth more than the slave’s provision of spiritual food.

Do you understand how that goes against Acts 17:11?  The GB expects, demands, that you go along with whatever they're telling you, not to even THINK something that disagrees with them. They keep making changes in the so-called "truth" their preaching and they point to those "adjustments" as proof that they're the sole channel of communication from God.  It's also in their publications that the gospel they preach is different from the one preached by the Apostles. Should we take note of that and compare it with the scripture that says not to listen to good news that is different than the one preached in the 1st century?

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news. 7 But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed.

Don't you think that scripture proves the WT Org is wrong?

There is also this one from 2 Corinthians 11:4: For, as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you receive a spirit other than what you received, or good news other than what you accepted, you easily put up [with him].

Woodzz

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

Woodzz  -  our beloved brothers of the governing body encourage us to put teachings to the Berean test, as  you put it.   Why you falsely charge marken with not doing this is beyond me - but, of course, your charge is false.

Newt,

What I said is true.  Marken and you both refuse to put their teachings of 1879 thru 1919 to the Berean test.  It doesn’t matter what you are teaching NOW if what you were teaching THEN is not the truth because it means the WT Org is NOT who they say they are.

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

Our recent book on Acts repeats this counsel which we all strive to follow:

"Though the Beroeans were hearing something new, they were not suspicious or harshly critical; neither were they gullible. First, they listened carefully to what Paul had to say. Then, they verified what they had learned by turning to the Scriptures, which Paul had opened up to their understanding. Moreover, they diligently studied the Word of God, not just on the Sabbath, but daily. And they did so with great "eagerness of mind," devoting themselves to finding out what the Scriptures revealed in light of this new teaching. Then, they proved humble enough to make changes, for "many of them became believers." (Acts 17:12) No wonder Luke describes them as "noble-minded"!

17 Little did those Beroeans realize that the record of their reaction to the good news would be preserved in God’s Word as a shining example of spiritual noble-mindedness. They did precisely what Paul had hoped they would do and what Jehovah God wanted them to do. Likewise, it is what we encourage people to do—to examine the Bible carefully so that their faith is solidly based on God’s Word. After we become believers, though, does the need to be noble-minded come to an end? On the contrary, it becomes ever more important that we be eager to learn from Jehovah and quick to apply his teachings. In that way, we allow Jehovah to mold us and train us according to his will. (Isa. 64:8) We thus remain useful and fully pleasing to our heavenly Father." - "“Bearing Thorough Witness” About God’s Kingdom," 2009,  pp. 137-138

The only thing they want you to do with Acts 17:11 is use it to endorse all their teachings and the changes in their teachings as they go along, which turns it into a meaningless rubber stamp for all they feed you.  And what they appeal to as the authority to demand such rubber stamping is their false teaching that Jesus approved of their group alone in 1918 and appointed them as the sole channel of communication between God and mankind.  If you were using Acts 17:11 as the model you SAY it is, there is no way you’d be a JW.

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

And so, for example, in trying to determine which definition of generation (Greek genea cp. English gene) Jehovah will use to fulfill the prophecy in Matthew 24:34 - we first acknowledge that is up to Jehovah and Jesus Christ which definition they will use.

[sigh] Newt, look at these examples of the WT Org’s track record as they flopped about on generation and tell me at what point did they acknowledge that it’s up to Jehovah and Jesus Christ which definition they will use:

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

However, our change in belief is a result of Biblical research - using the Bible as the highest authority as we always do. It involves discovery of additional definitions of Greek genea and similar words in Hebrew.

Your belief kept changing because the WT Org said to change it, not the Bible, because it’s your WT Org governing body that’s your highest authority, not the Bible.

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

Question is, why are you posting mere rhetoric instead of posting Scripture - why aren't you using the Bible as the highest authority?

The question is, why are you allowing them to twist you about with every wind that comes along?

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

We adjusted our understanding based on Scriptural context and cross references, to wit:

When? Was that in 2008 or in 1995? What about the previous years when you went back and forth on what generation meant, were scriptural context and cross references being used?

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

"Third, holy spirit is at work in bringing Bible truths to light. (Prov. 4:18) This magazine has long been used by “the faithful and discreet slave” as the primary channel for dispensing increased light. (Matt. 24:45) For example, consider our understanding of those who make up “this generation” mentioned by Jesus. (Read Matthew 24:32-34.) To what generation did Jesus refer? The article “Christ’s Presence—What Does It Mean to You?” explained that Jesus was referring, not to the wicked, but to his disciples, who were soon to be anointed with holy spirit. Jesus’ anointed followers, both in the first century and in our day, would be the ones who would not only see the sign but also discern its meaning—that Jesus “is near at the doors.”

14 What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.—Mark 13:37." - "The Watchtower," 4/15/10, pp. 10-11.

Now some of us, like Marken, simply wait on Jehovah for further light - the matter is sufficiently covered Scripturally and they are satisfied - which is fine and good.

This translates to you and Marken and the other JWs  waiting on  the WT Org’s governing body  to tell you what to believe.

Jun 7, 2012 -- 4:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

I personally, however, am  a doubting Thomas type.   So I believe the leadings of the holy spirit has led me to research this matter further - Biblical research, of course - as in Acts 17:11.

Of course, I would start  with references we cite above, e.g.:

(Exodus 1:5, 6) . . .And all the souls who issued out of Jacob’s upper thigh came to be seventy souls, but Joseph was already in Egypt. ⁶ Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.

What definition of generation is used here?  It involves overlapping generations, which you ridicule but is clearly Scriptural. 

However, from my independent research I have gone further.   The Bible gives other examples where the definition of a word or words involving a time period before judgment and/or death can have meanings involving a shorter or longer time period.

I will post on these and additional Scriptural cross references, in harmony with my personally applying our beloved governing body's encouragement above to apply Acts 17:11 - in my next post.

None of your research amounts to anything but apostasy if it's conclusions differ from what your leaders tell you to believe.  You DO know that, don’t you?

Woodzz

I  understand  that  the  governing  body  is  simply part  of  his  slave  and  he will  reveal  the  truth  to  them of  what he meant  about 'generation' at  the  right  time.

For the sake of all the poor JWs who flapped around getting ready for "Armageddon" every couple of decades since 1914, your "slave" would well advised to keep his "predictions" of catastrophe to himself.

Unfortunately, those "predictions" are a major element of control exercised by the GB.