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Switch to Forum Live View What is your final authority
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 11:45AM #191
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 14, 2012 -- 6:46AM, Johan Henze wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 3:58PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Johan Henze wrote:

Tx for bringing this up, but once again to show your final authority is the WTS and not the Bible !


If John under inspiration tels us that people will know that we are HIs disciples if we Love one another Jn 13: 33 - 35 then they say we can know it is ALL  JW but when the same author under inspiration says if we love one another  then we  are born from God 1 Jn 4: 7 then 99 %of JW deny that loving one another means that one are born from God! !    




Good point, Johan.


There's also John 1:12,13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


I have a thread at CARM on this scripture, how the FDS has said the verb tense means it was just for those in the first century [rs p.164] but earlier in the same book they ignore what they said about verb tense and extend it passed the first century to their own leaders of today! [rs p.77]


Woodzz


btw Why is it they can label us "mentally diseased" and that's supposed to be "loving" but when we point out the truth to them we're suddenly their enemy? (Galatians 4:16) 




Hi Holly I remember that thread of yours and if I recall both Robr and Robert V Frazier joined in the thread ! 


The WTS have two set of scales! What we do is rigth and if you do the same thing you are wrong ! Dont you agree?  






That's right, Johan, and also Ray Goldsmith and Rob Bowman.  Bonnie posted some really good information on that thread, too.  It was started just to show the inconsistency in the Reasoning book but the focus was rapidly on Greek grammar so there was a lot of input about that.


On the one hand the WT Org excludes anyone after the 1st century from being born again based on the past tense of the verbs in John 1:12,13, then they extend it past the 1st century to include their leaders, regardless of the past tense of the verbs in John 1:12,13.



And remember the thread about being "mentally diseased" from the WT of last summer?  They think nothing of labeling us as being mentally diseased but set up a fuss when we point out the obvious truth that their final authority is the governing body, not the Bible.



Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 10:28PM #192
Svetlana
Posts: 11,307

Jun 11, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Svetlana wrote:


So, then, if scripture addresses it all, then what about the wasted blood in the body of the patient that refuses a transfusion and dies?  Which of the passages you quoted address that, and how do the WTS/GB interpret them?  If blood is so important, why does Jehovah demand the sacrificing of eleven pints in order to refrain from using one?  In what way does the saving of a life dishonor Jehovah?  You claim it's all in scripture, so where are these questions answered? 



So, we still have nothing in scripture commanding the sacrifice of one's life to a pint of blood, and/or Jehovah's preference for the one pint above the wasted eleven in the body of the sacrificed patient.  We have only an irrelevant passage about what type of meat to eat, and the WTS/GB's command to sacrifice one's life.  You know, when it comes to sacrificing one's own life or the life of one's child, it is reasonable to assume that the one you obey is your ultimate authority.  Jehovah does NOT command this, only your human leaders do, and you obey them to the death, literally.  Your position is quite clear.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 6:45AM #193
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Svetlana - Yes, our position is quite clear, though you have attempted to muddy the waters, so to speak. 


The Bible is our highest authority, and here is one of the accounts you are ignoring which gives two reasons to abstain from blood:


(Genesis 9:4, 5) . . .Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man.


The two reasons in this account are:


1.  The soul is in the blood.  See also Leviticus 17:14 for confirmation of this fact.  Thus blood is sacred.


2.  God asks back blood once it is shed - such that shed blood no longer belongs to us to use for anything - it belongs to God.


I suggest you do some research on our stand - here are a few links to help you:


www.watchtower.org/e/hb/index.htm


www.watchtower.org/e/20000108/article_01...


Here are three videos to help you understand our stand better:


www.watchtower.org/e/vcnb/article_01.htm


www.watchtower.org/e/vcnr/article_01.htm


www.watchtower.org/e/vcae/article_01.htm

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 6:56AM #194
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Jun 13, 2012 -- 7:14PM, marken wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Johan Henze wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 2:06PM, marken wrote:


One of the things all these posts do  for  me, is to help me  understand  why  our  Lord  asked  us  to  love  our  enemies.  We  do  gotta  love  them,don't  we,  because  on  one  hand  they  say  we  take  direction  only  from  the  FD slave  and  then on the  other  hand  print  out  reams  of  words,trying to  show  we  do not  take  direction  from  them.  I  personally  don't  get  the  point  of  it  all,  but   I  guess,  to each his  own!!  But as  the  Lord points  out,  if  we  can  continue  to  love  one  another, it  will  all  come  out  in  it's  due  time.  


with affection  from  Marken


 





Tx for bringing this up, but once again to show your final authority is the WTS and not the Bible !


If John under inspiration tels us that people will know that we are His disciples  if we Love one another  Jn 13: 33 - 35 then they say we can know it is ALL  JW but when the same author under inspiration says if we love one another  then we  are born from God  1 Jn 4: 7 then 99 %of JW deny that loving one another means that one are born from God! !    




If you  are  thanking  me  for  pointing  out  that  our  Lord  asked  that  we  all  love  one another,  I  say  you  are  very  welcome. If  the  scripture  says  that  it  is  the love  we  feel  for  one  another that shows  we  are  born  from  God,  then  please believe it.  Surely, we  show  by  our  unkind  comments  to each other, that  we  are  not  born  from  God.




 


Marken - Thank you for applying this fine counsel:


(1 Peter 3:15) But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.


While woodzz claims to misunderstand your point, thinking it only applies to the 144,000 (how wrong he is!), I got your point clearly - essentially the thought in this verse and context:


(1 John 4:4-8) . . .YOU originate with God, little children, and YOU have conquered those [persons], because he that is in union with YOU is greater than he that is in union with the world. 5 They originate with the world; that is why they speak [what proceeds] from the world and the world listens to them. 6 We originate with God. He that gains the knowledge of God listens to us; he that does not originate with God does not listen to us. This is how we take note of the inspired expression of truth and the inspired expression of error. 7 Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the knowledge of God. 8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.


It is sad our detractors so rarely consult God's word in their posts - not to mention the failure to sanctify Christ as Lord in their hearts (1 Peter 3:15).

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:00AM #195
Svetlana
Posts: 11,307

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:56AM, Newtonian wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 7:14PM, marken wrote:

It is sad our detractors so rarely consult God's word in their posts - not to mention the failure to sanctify Christ as Lord in their hearts (1 Peter 3:15).



Nothing but absurd evasions.  Again with the accusation that ASKING for scriptural backup is a refusal to use it.  Doesn't it bother you JWs at all that you are forced to such a ridiculous claim as your ONLY answer to legitmate questions?  Doesn't that raise red flags in your own minds, seriously?  "This person asked for scriptural backup for what we believe.  Hmmm, I can't find any, so all I can do is accuse that person of not using scripture for the question.  There is no scriptural backup, and I must not admit that, so I'll use this futile evasive tactic, as my leaders tell me to."


It's sad how often you resort to this.  It would be downright tragic if it actually worked for you in your own minds.  I can only pity you for the headaches such powerful cognitive dissonance must give you.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:28AM #196
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:56AM, Newtonian wrote:

Marken - Thank you for applying this fine counsel:


(1 Peter 3:15) But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.


While woodzz claims to misunderstand your point, thinking it only applies to the 144,000 (how wrong he is!), I got your point clearly - essentially the thought in this verse and context:





Newt, are you referring to this post?  Because if you are, what I said is true, you apply being born again only to the 144,000 (and I'm a she):



Jun 13, 2012 -- 7:14PM, marken wrote:

  Surely, we  show  by  our  unkind  comments  to each other, that  we  are  not  born  from  God.








Since you teach that only 144,000 people can be born of God, what does that say about the rest? 



The WT Org denies you the right to receive Jesus and be born of God.  Do you consider it unkindness to point that out to you?  Contrary to what some may think, it is not unkind and unloving to lay bare falsehood and corruption.  Isn't that a tenant of your beliefs?



What it amounts to, Marken, is you can call us names but when we point out that your teachings are false, you label us your enemies.



Which, let's face it, is mild compared to what else you've labeled us throughout the publications you bring to our doors. 



Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:55PM #197
Svetlana
Posts: 11,307

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:45AM, Newtonian wrote:


Svetlana - Yes, our position is quite clear, though you have attempted to muddy the waters, so to speak. 


The Bible is our highest authority, and here is one of the accounts you are ignoring which gives two reasons to abstain from blood:


(Genesis 9:4, 5) . . .Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man.


The two reasons in this account are:


1.  The soul is in the blood.  See also Leviticus 17:14 for confirmation of this fact.  Thus blood is sacred.


2.  God asks back blood once it is shed - such that shed blood no longer belongs to us to use for anything - it belongs to God.


I suggest you do some research on our stand - here are a few links to help you:


www.watchtower.org/e/hb/index.htm


www.watchtower.org/e/20000108/article_01...


Here are three videos to help you understand our stand better:


www.watchtower.org/e/vcnb/article_01.htm


www.watchtower.org/e/vcnr/article_01.htm


www.watchtower.org/e/vcae/article_01.htm



No, they don't answer the question at all.  The first two make mention of how precious blood is to Jehovah, which implies that the patient's life should be SAVED with blood, and the last three are only ways in which JWs can meet the WTS/GB's rules, since Jehovah has not been shown to make these rules with your passages.  No, if Jehovah values blood so much, as a symbol of life, the clear implication is that to sacrifice a life and all the blood in the body, to avoid saving that life with blood, is the wrong.  Your passages support the idea that saving all twelve pints is the moral way to go.  The pint in the little bag will only last so long, so not to use it is to waste it, as well as the eleven still in the patient.  Read your links carefully and you'll see that scripture most emphatically endorses the SAVING of lives with transfusions, and opposes the loss of life and the wasting of blood.


Nope, scripture does not support the WTS/GB rules demanding the refusal of transfusions to the point of death.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 6:24PM #198
marken
Posts: 3,710

Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:00AM, Svetlana wrote:

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:56AM, Newtonian wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 7:14PM, marken wrote:

It is sad our detractors so rarely consult God's word in their posts - not to mention the failure to sanctify Christ as Lord in their hearts (1 Peter 3:15).



Nothing but absurd evasions.  Again with the accusation that ASKING for scriptural backup is a refusal to use it.  Doesn't it bother you JWs at all that you are forced to such a ridiculous claim as your ONLY answer to legitmate questions?  Doesn't that raise red flags in your own minds, seriously?  "This person asked for scriptural backup for what we believe.  Hmmm, I can't find any, so all I can do is accuse that person of not using scripture for the question.  There is no scriptural backup, and I must not admit that, so I'll use this futile evasive tactic, as my leaders tell me to."


It's sad how often you resort to this.  It would be downright tragic if it actually worked for you in your own minds.  I can only pity you for the headaches such powerful cognitive dissonance must give you.


Could  we  call  this  a post  from  our  detractors?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 8:19PM #199
Svetlana
Posts: 11,307

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:24PM, marken wrote:

Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:00AM, Svetlana wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:56AM, Newtonian wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 7:14PM, marken wrote:

It is sad our detractors so rarely consult God's word in their posts - not to mention the failure to sanctify Christ as Lord in their hearts (1 Peter 3:15).



Nothing but absurd evasions.  Again with the accusation that ASKING for scriptural backup is a refusal to use it.  Doesn't it bother you JWs at all that you are forced to such a ridiculous claim as your ONLY answer to legitmate questions?  Doesn't that raise red flags in your own minds, seriously?  "This person asked for scriptural backup for what we believe.  Hmmm, I can't find any, so all I can do is accuse that person of not using scripture for the question.  There is no scriptural backup, and I must not admit that, so I'll use this futile evasive tactic, as my leaders tell me to."


It's sad how often you resort to this.  It would be downright tragic if it actually worked for you in your own minds.  I can only pity you for the headaches such powerful cognitive dissonance must give you.




Could  we  call  this  a post  from  our  detractors?



Sure, go ahead.  Doing so, after all, is confirming my point.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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