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Switch to Forum Live View What is your final authority
2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 7:44AM #91
DNT
Posts: 1,514

Newtonian


Also if i am wrong about any thing i have posted and you had better show me evidence of my so called deceit, i will retract it.


Denis.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 10:45AM #92
Kemmer
Posts: 16,645

...Therefore the faithful slave is fallible and does make corrections at the proper time Jesus directs as part of the food at the proper time...



Why do you suppose Jesus feeds your "slave" bogus material in the first place?  Or, if your "slave" is too dense to get the message the first time, why doesn't Jesus hire another more intelligent "slave"?


Jesus:  "OK, here's how to make a cake;  Add 2 eggs to a cup of milk and 1½ cups of sugar.  And, voilà, a cake."


"More info later 'at the proper time'.  Meanwhile stick to the above recipe with all your heart because I, Jesus, say so."

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 9:08AM #93
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

May 30, 2012 -- 7:33AM, DNT wrote:


Hey Newtonian


Please explain why the WTS magazine states categorically that studies in scriptures when read on there own will bring a person in to the light, but reading the Bible on there own will bring a person in to darkness.


WT magazine sept 15, 1910.p.298 The Magazine wrote, with out studies in the scriptures one could never see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, it went on to say, even after reading studies in scriptures for ten years, if one stopped reading it and went to the Bible alone, within two years he would REVERT BACK in to darkness, further he said, Conversely one who never read the Bible, but did read Russell's volumes would be in the light at the end of two years because he would have had the light of the scriptures.


Please explain this quote from the WTS magazine issued in 1910, sept 15, page 298. Please show me one prophecy that the WTS have got right, please show me the credentials of the people who translated the NWT so that they can be verified that they indeed are qualified to do so.


Please show me where i have deceived any one here, please show me any lie i have told.


Denis. 





Hi Denis,


No explanation yet?


I found this quote recently and thought it would be appropriate for this thread, though someone may have already posted it.  If so, here it is again, from the 10/1/67 wt.:


pg. 587 "Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind."


pg. 590 "Evidences are now conclusive that Jesus Christ was enthroned in heaven in 1914 C.E. and that he accompanied Jehovah to his temple in 1918 C.E., when judgment began with the house of God. (1 Pet. 4:17) After cleansing those belonging to this house who were alive on earth, Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them and assigned them the responsibility of serving as his sole visible channel, through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come. Those who recognize Jehovah’s visible theocratic organization, therefore, must recognize and accept this appointment of the “faithful and discreet slave” and be submissive to it."


Their authority is the WT Org, as plainly stated above "through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come."


Woodzz


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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 9:20AM #94
matica
Posts: 3,067

May 30, 2012 -- 10:45AM, Kemmer wrote:


...Therefore the faithful slave is fallible and does make corrections at the proper time Jesus directs as part of the food at the proper time...



Why do you suppose Jesus feeds your "slave" bogus material in the first place?  Or, if your "slave" is too dense to get the message the first time, why doesn't Jesus hire another more intelligent "slave"?


Jesus:  "OK, here's how to make a cake;  Add 2 eggs to a cup of milk and 1½ cups of sugar.  And, voilà, a cake."


"More info later 'at the proper time'.  Meanwhile stick to the above recipe with all your heart because I, Jesus, say so."




"and if you don't follow this recipe exactly, my dad is gonna kill you and your children"


fast forward 40 years.....


"hey I know I told you guys you had to follow that recipe, but it's changed, it's now 3 egg whites and 2 egg yolks separated, at room temperature, has to be exactly room temp or my dad is gonna kill you."

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 11:06AM #95
marken
Posts: 3,710

May 29, 2012 -- 12:03PM, woodzz wrote:

May 22, 2012 -- 4:21AM, DNT wrote:

A while back i said that jw do not hold the Bible as there highest authority, i was basically told i was a liar. So i would like to ask jw and none jw, what do they consider is the highest authority a human being can go to in the search for the understanding of God and why.




Hi DNT,


You are correct to say JWs don't hold the Bible as their highest authority.  The men on the WT Org's governing body are JWs highest authority and they are the ones who tell JWs what to believe the Bible says, and when to believe it.  The reason is because all JWs believe Jesus reviewed the teachings of Charles Russell (1876-1917), approved of them as being faithful and wise, and appointed Russell's followers (later known as Jehovah's Witnesses) as the authority over all his earthly interests and as the sole channel of communication between God and mankind.  They preach that a person can hope for little to no understanding of God and his Word without being associated with them.


 


Woodzz


 


 


It may be  that  there  are  replies  to  these  falsehoods  in  later posts, but  I  feel  compelled  to  answer  them  now. We  believe that  in  1914 Jesus  began his  reign over  the  earth  and  chose  one  of  the  anointed  on  the  earth  to  oversee  that  work.  He  did  not make  this  choice  because  of  perfection of  doctrine  but  rather,  just  as  when he  chose  Saul, he  chose  a  man  who  would  be  dedicated  to  do his  will  in  spite  of  any  error  in his  doctrine.  Some  on  this  board  say on  one  hand,  that  we  are followers  of  Russell  and  then  state  where  we  have  learned  from  the  scriptures  a  clearer  understanding  of  a matter  and  downgrade us  because  we  do not  follow  Russell's  teachings. 


Because of  Russell's being  dedicated  to him,  the  same  thing  has  happened  as  in  Saul's  case.  Jehovah's  will  for  this  time  is  being  carried  out.  Yes,  we  do  now  have  a  group  of the anointed  to  oversee instead  of  one  man.  This  is  actually  what  God's  will  is, as  though he  does  appreciate  each of  of  us  individually, he  wants  us to  follow  his  Son  as  leader.  We  should  never put any human  teaching  above  that  of  the  Christ!   If  some  man  wants us to Heil him  as  leader,  we  refuse.  


I  can  think of  no  good  reason  that  one  who  wants  to  be  a  servant  of  Jesus,would  fight  against  associating  with  his  brothers.


with  affection  from Marken

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 11:21AM #96
Kemmer
Posts: 16,645

 We  believe that  in  1914 Jesus  began his  reign over  the  earth  and  chose  one  of  the  anointed  on  the  earth  to  oversee  that  work...



This would seem to imply that Christ views Earth as sort of casual hobby project since he put all of humanity in Satan's hands for 2000 years just to see if Satan could make a go of it.


All things considered, in that time span we've gone from slave and wind powering our industries to having mobile laboratories on Mars.  Not too shabby of "Satan", one would have to admit.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 11:26AM #97
mrjordan
Posts: 2,207

May 31, 2012 -- 11:06AM, marken wrote:

May 29, 2012 -- 12:03PM, woodzz wrote:


May 22, 2012 -- 4:21AM, DNT wrote:

A while back i said that jw do not hold the Bible as there highest authority, i was basically told i was a liar. So i would like to ask jw and none jw, what do they consider is the highest authority a human being can go to in the search for the understanding of God and why.




Hi DNT,


You are correct to say JWs don't hold the Bible as their highest authority.  The men on the WT Org's governing body are JWs highest authority and they are the ones who tell JWs what to believe the Bible says, and when to believe it.  The reason is because all JWs believe Jesus reviewed the teachings of Charles Russell (1876-1917), approved of them as being faithful and wise, and appointed Russell's followers (later known as Jehovah's Witnesses) as the authority over all his earthly interests and as the sole channel of communication between God and mankind.  They preach that a person can hope for little to no understanding of God and his Word without being associated with them.


 


Woodzz


 


 




It may be  that  there  are  replies  to  these  falsehoods  in  later posts, but  I  feel  compelled  to  answer  them  now. We  believe that  in  1914 Jesus  began his  reign over  the  earth  and  chose  one  of  the  anointed  on  the  earth  to  oversee  that  work.  He  did  not make  this  choice  because  of  perfection of  doctrine  but  rather,  just  as  when he  chose  Saul, he  chose  a  man  who  would  be  dedicated  to  do his  will  in  spite  of  any  error  in his  doctrine.  Some  on  this  board  say on  one  hand,  that  we  are followers  of  Russell  and  then  state  where  we  have  learned  from  the  scriptures  a  clearer  understanding  of  a matter  and  downgrade us  because  we  do not  follow  Russell's  teachings. 


Because of  Russell's being  dedicated  to him,  the  same  thing  has  happened  as  in  Saul's  case.  Jehovah's  will  for  this  time  is  being  carried  out.  Yes,  we  do  now  have  a  group  of the anointed  to  oversee instead  of  one  man.  This  is  actually  what  God's  will  is, as  though he  does  appreciate  each of  of  us  individually, he  wants  us to  follow  his  Son  as  leader.  We  should  never put any human  teaching  above  that  of  the  Christ!   If  some  man  wants us to Heil him  as  leader,  we  refuse.  


I  can  think of  no  good  reason  that  one  who  wants  to  be  a  servant  of  Jesus,would  fight  against  associating  with  his  brothers.


with  affection  from Marken




Agreed Marken. The anointed and governing body are not there to rule us. Far far from it. There are there to help us. Provide answers to questions and provide for us anything we need to tell people of the Good News. If we worship these people in any fashion that would be in direct violation of the bible. So if you hear something like "Witnesses worship men" this is a lie.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 11:51AM #98
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

May 31, 2012 -- 11:06AM, marken wrote:

May 29, 2012 -- 12:03PM, woodzz wrote:


May 22, 2012 -- 4:21AM, DNT wrote:

A while back i said that jw do not hold the Bible as there highest authority, i was basically told i was a liar. So i would like to ask jw and none jw, what do they consider is the highest authority a human being can go to in the search for the understanding of God and why.




Hi DNT,


You are correct to say JWs don't hold the Bible as their highest authority.  The men on the WT Org's governing body are JWs highest authority and they are the ones who tell JWs what to believe the Bible says, and when to believe it.  The reason is because all JWs believe Jesus reviewed the teachings of Charles Russell (1876-1917), approved of them as being faithful and wise, and appointed Russell's followers (later known as Jehovah's Witnesses) as the authority over all his earthly interests and as the sole channel of communication between God and mankind.  They preach that a person can hope for little to no understanding of God and his Word without being associated with them.


Woodzz



It may be  that  there  are  replies  to  these  falsehoods  in  later posts, but  I  feel  compelled  to  answer  them  now. We  believe that  in  1914 Jesus  began his  reign over  the  earth  and  chose  one  of  the  anointed  on  the  earth  to  oversee  that  work.  He  did  not make  this  choice  because  of  perfection of  doctrine  but  rather,  just  as  when he  chose  Saul, he  chose  a  man  who  would  be  dedicated  to  do his  will  in  spite  of  any  error  in his  doctrine.  Some  on  this  board  say on  one  hand,  that  we  are followers  of  Russell  and  then  state  where  we  have  learned  from  the  scriptures  a  clearer  understanding  of  a matter  and  downgrade us  because  we  do not  follow  Russell's  teachings. 


Because of  Russell's being  dedicated  to him,  the  same  thing  has  happened  as  in  Saul's  case.  Jehovah's  will  for  this  time  is  being  carried  out.  Yes,  we  do  now  have  a  group  of the anointed  to  oversee instead  of  one  man.  This  is  actually  what  God's  will  is, as  though he  does  appreciate  each of  of  us  individually, he  wants  us to  follow  his  Son  as  leader.  We  should  never put any human  teaching  above  that  of  the  Christ!   If  some  man  wants us to Heil him  as  leader,  we  refuse.  


I  can  think of  no  good  reason  that  one  who  wants  to  be  a  servant  of  Jesus,would  fight  against  associating  with  his  brothers.


with  affection  from Marken





No, Marken, you teach that Jesus chose a group of men, not "one of the anointed" as you have falsely stated.  It's referred to in the ka book p.350-355 as a class of people, "a body of international Christians," a "faithful and discreet slave class," the "remnant of his anointed disciples." [ka = God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years]. 


And, the appointment WAS to be made strictly on perfection of doctrine. "The serving of the right sort of food at the proper time was the issue.  It had to be according to this that a decision must be rendered by the returned Master.....Not only was the regularity of serving the spiritual food a problem, but the quality of the food itself was to be considered." [ka p.350 #40]


In the wt of 6/1/2001 they set out standards of judgment as this: "Logically, to enjoy God's backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word, and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition."


So in addition to it being "the right sort of food," "at the proper time", of high "quality," it must also be "only what God reveals in his Word," and be "rejected because of human wisdom or tradition."


Let's take just one of the teachings Jesus would have been inspecting if he did indeed inspect your group in 1914-1919: His second coming.  They were teaching that it had already happened, in 1874.


Applying the standards the WT Org has set out, did this teaching pass the inspection of being the right sort of food and the proper time, of the right quality, only what God revealed in his Word and not based on human wisdom?  No, it did not.


They were also teaching that Michael the archangel in Rev 12 was the pope in Rome, the child born in Rev 12 was the antichrist, Abaddon was Satan, the locust were the Methodists.....


None of these teachings pass the standards set out by the WT Org itself.  You've been taken captive by the concept that the WT Org is God's organization.  It isnt'.  It doesn't pass any of it's own requirements for being God's organization because they've presumptuously accorded themselves an authority that never came from God.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:04PM #99
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

May 31, 2012 -- 11:26AM, mrjordan wrote:


Agreed Marken. The anointed and governing body are not there to rule us. Far far from it. There are there to help us. Provide answers to questions and provide for us anything we need to tell people of the Good News. If we worship these people in any fashion that would be in direct violation of the bible. So if you hear something like "Witnesses worship men" this is a lie.





You've outlined exactly what I've been saying, you look to the men on the governing body to tell you what the Bible says.  I didn't call it worship, you're the one who came up with that.


Twice now on this discussion board JWs have mis-spoken their understanding of the Bible.  Both time I brought their attention to what the WT Org's understanding of the Bible is and they both changed their minds to that of the WT Org.  That in itself shows you obviously consider them your authority and not the Bible.


They, in fact, have said they are your authority when it comes to understanding the Bible.  They ALONE provide spiritual direction to you, remember?


[w67 10/1 p.590 #19]Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them and assigned them the responsibility of serving as his sole visible channel, through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come. Those who recognize Jehovah’s visible theocratic organization, therefore, must recognize and accept this appointment of the “faithful and discreet slave” and be submissive to it.


[w81 12/1 p.27 #4] Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.


 


Woodzz



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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:24PM #100
Kemmer
Posts: 16,645

Agreed Marken. The anointed and governing body are not there to rule us....



Nevertheless, a JWs preservation into eternity absolutely depends on obeying the GB.

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