Post Reply
Page 9 of 12  •  Prev 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 Next
Switch to Forum Live View How are these scriptures suppose to portray a loving God?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 5:43PM #81
Newtonian
Posts: 12,145

May 29, 2012 -- 8:20PM, mrjordan wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 6:35PM, Newtonian wrote:


You all - I question also, being a doubting Thomas type.  The following starts with my not knowing the answer, and then learning the answer: (still learning, of course!):


Ok - Now I have a question - I mean one I do not yet know the answer to - perhaps it will not be known until the new scrolls are opened - or perhaps I simply missed it the answer.


What of those who are not misled by Satan in that final test but who might not yet love Jehovah with all their hearts yet - as per Matthew 22:37-40.


I mean, I know Adam and Eve could have continued to live in the garden of Eden indefinitely without actually partaking of the tree of life - simply not loving Jehovah enough did not carry the death penalty but it certainly would have disallowed partaking of the tree of life!


Will all actually be partaking of the trees of life by the end of the 1,000 years except those who are to be misled by Satan?


(Revelation 22:1, 2) . . .And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.


Obviously, no one will be forced to be cured!   However, the priesthood ends at the 1,000 years - likely the pleading for us will end then also - though, of course, the new scrolls are not yet opened.  I.e. all will be perfect, I think.   How much they love Jehovah will be tested, as Adam and Eve were tested.


Well, my guess is that most, if not all, who pass that final test will be permitted to eat of the tree of life, so to speak - i.e. gain eternal life. 


But I can't help thinking their might be some exceptions - i.e. that some will not be misled by Satan but still have not grown to love Jehovah enough for their eternal life to be permanently decided - i.e. written in the book of life in ink, not pencil!


(Revelation 3:5, 6) . . .He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations. . .


(Revelation 20:15) 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.


 (Psalm 69:27, 28) . . .Do give error upon their error, And may they not come into your righteousness. 28 Let them be wiped out of the book of the living ones, And with the righteous ones may they not be written in.


Of course, I have not fully researched this question - yet!  It boils down to can someone still be in the book of life in pencil rather than ink for some time after the final test?


OK, my question answered (unless the new scrolls update this!):


"The “great crowd,” who survive the “great tribulation,” are not yet declared righteous for life—that is, as worthy of the right to everlasting life on earth. They need to continue partaking of the “fountains of waters of life,” as guided by the Lamb, Christ Jesus. They will need to do this during the Millennial Reign of Christ. (Re 7:17; 22:1, 2) If they prove loyal to Jehovah through a final test at the end of the thousand years, they will have their names permanently retained in God’s book of life, Jehovah thus declaring, or acknowledging, that they finally are righteous in the complete sense.—Re 20:7, 8; see LIFE (Trees of Life)." - "Insight on the Scriptures," Volume 1, p. 606.


And, btw, that does not mean I will not be keeping this question in mind in my future personal study - it just means I am satisfied with that answer knowing full well we do not know it all!


I.e. likely the final text will also involve things we will learn from the new scrolls that will be opened during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.   If we knew it all, there would be no need for new scrolls!


Ed and truthwillset - And the repeated expression in Scripture: "trust in Jehovah" - that is crucial when one is not sure yet about something - like, for example, if children who die before birth will be resurrected or not.


This Scripture humbles me:


(Ecclesiastes 11:5) . . .Just as you are not aware of what is the way of the spirit in the bones in the belly of her that is pregnant, in like manner you do not know the work of the [true] God, who does all things.


 




Newt, I completely relate here. It is true we do not know it all. The one thing I think about most is that Satan's influence will be gone for 1000 years! That is more than 10 lifetimes! Even for those resurrected that is a tremendous amount of time. Adam and Eve did not even get that much time in the Garden of Eden before that serpent messed everything up. Our vision is so limited by only what we know of this world. I think I will treat the 1000 years much like I have treated this world. Mind open, ears open and when something does not fit, discard it. Like you, if I can't find an answer that fits, hold on to that question.


For example. You and I would love to know about all the biblical things that happened. Like do you want to know what it was like on the ark during the flood? Guess what! Let's ask Noah! He will be there! Would you like to know what is was like to walk across the Red Sea when Jehovah parted it for the Hebrews? We can ask Moses!


All of the questions we have ever had can be answered. Why? Because we have shown faith in Jehovah and his Son.


So bring on those 1000 years!!! And I prey everyone posting on this board has the chance to do the same and have their questions answered!!




Hey Mr. Jordan!   Yes, I can't wait to ask Noah things like how many plants he brought on the ark or grew near the tsofar/windows - and what meals they ate together in what type of dining room, etc!   See my thread on that -  meant to be more fun than serious!


My prayers are similar - indeed that is what Jehovah wants!  (2 Peter 3:9)




 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 8:59AM #82
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

Jun 5, 2012 -- 5:09PM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - I agree with you - you didn't get that?   The two fiances may not have been very wicked - they may well deserve to be exceptions to the rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected.  


tws: Geez, Newt, how much sense does it make for God to put people to death who he knew would be getting a resurrection later? 


So you're saying he looked at the two fiances and said "hey, these guys are pretty decent but I'm going to kill them anyway.  No biggie, I can always resurrect them later."


I trust you understand that it was not just wicked people who were killed by Katrina - simply not heeding the warning to evacuate New Orleans did not make them wicked - but it certainly meant their deaths because they did not heed the warning!


People die all the time because they do not heed various wise warnings - and not just warnings by Jehovah's Witnesses either - warnings by meteorologists or the mayor of New Orleans also!   Warnings against smoking is another example.  


Those who ignore those warnings are fuming!Surprised  They go up in smoke!Cry


tws: I find it odd that you compare Jehovah, your "almighty" God, to an indiscriminate hurricane.  Are you telling us that he didn't have the ability to selectively kill the wicked people in Sodom? 


Either he couldn't or he didn't want to.  Either way it doesn't sound very loving!





Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 9:35AM #83
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Actually, I stopped posting on this board for my own peace of mind...therefore, I hope that I don't live to regret this. Smile Also, my posts are in orange.


Jun 5, 2012 -- 5:09PM, Newtonian wrote:


Hi Ed!   My response is in blue:


May 29, 2012 -- 10:13PM, Ed_3 wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - Well, I am still learning myself - thanks to your good questions.   And the personal Bible study the slave has encouraged us to do.


I never considered before the difference between the judgment seat of God and the judgment seat of Christ in reference to the resurrection - or, for that matter, the judgment on deeds performed after the resurrection.


This important detail I learned from my personal Bible study:


(John 5:21, 22) 21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,


Well, obviously, the Father, Jehovah, had judged many in the past - including those in Sodom.   But now things have changed!  


At least, from my understanding of John 5:21 - Jesus chooses to resurrrect some Jehovah had not chosen to resurrect!



Huh? I'm sorry, but I don't get how you get that from John 5:21.


John 5:21 shows that Jehovah resurrects some and Jesus resurrects others - you get something different from this verse?


Job knew that Jehovah would resurrect him, thus he wrote:


(Job 14:13-15) . . .O that in She′ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.


Daniel did not specify who would resurrect those asleep in the ground of dust (Daniel 12:2) though this immediately follows Michael standing up (Daniel 12:1) - Jesus specified it would be at the sound of his voice (the archangel's voice as in Thessalonians):


(John 5:25-30) . . .“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.


Ed-3: But if you even go back further into the context starting with verse 19, it paints a different picture than what you are saying, Newtonian(emphasis in purple mine):


19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.

25 “Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.


Therefore, Newtonian, from the context of John 5, the scriptures don't seem to be saying what you believe that they are saying.


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


Now, it may not be so simple.   I give the example of Lot's daughter's fiances to show how complex this can become.


First, those two men may have pleaded for Lot's daughters before the mob - our literature has brought up that as a reason why Lot offerred his daughters to the mob - knowing their fiance's would intervene for his daughters.


Well, what if they did?   This would be a basis for mercy - though they still deserved to die as they did not obey. 



Newtonian, I don't understand why you say that the two fiancés still deserved to die as they did not obey. Also, I know that your literature has brought up that the reason why Lot offered his daughters to the mob was for the reason that the two fiancés might plead for Lot daughters, however, Genesis 19:6-14a shows that the two fiancés weren't even around when Lot offered his daughters to the mob(emphasis mine):


Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”


“Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.


10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.


12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else heresons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”


14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law...


Ed - good point - as I said, Lot's Sons-in-law were outside and Lot knew this and likely expected them to plead for his daughters to the mob outside.


But, Newtonian, how could they have pleaded for Lot's daughter when Genesis 19:6-14 show that Lot's sons-in-law weren't even around when the mob surrounded Lot's house?


Nonetheless, like some who died in the flood, they scoffed at the warning message Lot conveyed - you failed to finish verse 14!


(Genesis 19:14) 14 Hence Lot went on out and began to speak to his sons-in-law who were to take his daughters, and he kept on saying: “Get up! Get out of this place, because Jehovah is bringing the city to ruin!” But in the eyes of his sons-in-law he seemed like a man who was joking.


Of course, they deserved to die just as those who did not enter the ark deserved to die at the Noahchian flood.  


But, you're comparing apples to oranges, Newtonian. In the flood story, the people of Noah's days had decades to decide whether or not they would get onto Noah's ark...plus, according to the story, they also watched Noah build a gigantic ark that was sitting in front of them and served as a constant reminder of the warning of the flood.


However, with Lot's sons-in-law, they didn't witness the mob surrounding Lot's house and the angels incapacitating them with blindess. Although, I'm sure that if they had witnessed those events, they really wouldn't have had a reason to doubt Lot's warning that Jehovah was going to bring the city to ruin. 


Therefore, I don't understand how you can say that they deserved to die...just because they thought that Lot was joking. Especially, since they didn't have the evidence that Lot had that he indeed was not joking(e.g. a warning from God himself and the angels blinding the mob that had surrounded his house). Evidence that would have caused any reasonable person to not believe that Lot was like a man who was joking




quote author=33922979 post=520217605]


It is not that simple either.   Lot's daughters may have or may during the thousand year reign plead for their fiance's in prayer.  Jehovah might not intend to resurrect them anyway - but remember Jesus will also resurrect those whom he wants to!



I'm sorry, Newtonian, but I still don't see why you or the Bible itself makes the two fiancés out to be such bad guys. I mean, were they really all that wicked and deserved to be burned alive...just because they didn't have any proof(as Lot did) that angels were going to burn the city to the ground?


Ed - I agree with you - you didn't get that?   The two fiances may not have been very wicked - they may well deserve to be exceptions to the rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected.  


Rule? What rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected? And would that rule in general have included the children and the babies and the infants in Sodom and Gomorrah? After all, the city involved more than the men who formed the mob around Lot's house...and the men who continuously participated in gross sexual misconduct.


I trust you understand that it was not just wicked people who were killed by Katrina - simply not heeding the warning to evacuate New Orleans did not make them wicked - but it certainly meant their deaths because they did not heed the warning!


People die all the time because they do not heed various wise warnings - and not just warnings by Jehovah's Witnesses either - warnings by meteorologists or the mayor of New Orleans also!   Warnings against smoking is another example.  


Those who ignore those warnings are fuming!Surprised  They go up in smoke!Cry


So, Newtonian, are you saying that Lot's two sons-in-law deserved to share the same fate as those in the city who were proud, haughty, uncharitable, inhospitable, and grossly sexually immoral...just because they didn't heed a last-minute warning, in which they had no proof or no indication that the warning could possibly be true?


Thinking out loud: Oh boy, I can't believe that I'm doing this. ...I've already been working on this post for about an hour....and I think that I'm only about halfway through. :-O


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


 If this possible prayer of those women during the thousand year reign of Jesus involves proper desire, as well it might be, then this promise is involved:


(Psalm 145:16) You are opening your hand And satisfying the desire of every living thing.


But, you say - isn't Jehovah's judgment perfect?   Yes!  They may well deserve to be dead forever!   However, remember how much Jesus loved mankind!  (Proverbs 8:31)


If Jehovah's judgment was the final say and Jesus could not as judge extend further mercy, then how is it Jesus pleads for us before Jehovah?


(Hebrews 7:25) . . .Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.


In other words, Jesus pleads for those whom he chooses to plead for - and he resurrects those whom he chooses to resurrect.   This pleading is not meaningless - as the trinity doctrine might make it seem.  


Jesus' will is separate and distinct from Jehovah's will - this is a real pleading.



But, Newtonian, the scriptures are very ambiguous on this. In some verses it says that Jesus isn't doing his will, but the will of the father. But in other scriptures, like the ones that you pointed out, it makes it sound like Jesus is in charge...distinct from the Father. However though, if the Father is suppose to be the sovereign of the universe, then how can anything really take place if it's not actually according to the Father's will? Therefore, Newtonian, according to scripture, there really is no such thing as Jesus' will being distinct from the Father's will.


Ed, you contradicted yourself above - the Scriptures do show that Jesus' will is separate and distinct from his Father's will - otherwise, how could Jesus plead for us before Jehovah - how could his serving as intercessor as High Priest make any sense? 


Well, I've already presented what was said in John 5:19-30.


Remember, the Bible does NOT teach the trinity doctrine!   The Bible does teach Jesus and Jehovah are one in unity just as Jehovah's Witnesses are:


(John 17:20-23) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. . .


I trust you realize that the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are one with each other and with Jehovah and Jesus does not contradict the fact that we can plead for any of our brothers and sisters in prayer - or that the 144,000 underpriests will indeed also plead for us?


Okay, I'm going to stop now because that is all that I want to reply about in this post.


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


So, as Mr. Jordan just posted - I also am so glad Jesus has been given the privilege and responsibility of judging.


No wonder Isaiah desired Jehovah in the night when he pondered Jehovah's judgments for the earth!  (Isaiah 26:7-10).   What a wonderful Judge we have in Jesus!


(Isaiah 11:1-5) . . .And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jes′se; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful. 2 And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah; 3 and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah. And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. 4 And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. And he must strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the spirit of his lips he will put the wicked one to death. 5 And righteousness must prove to be the belt of his hips, and faithfulness the belt of his loins.


And I am so thankful we have broken free from the trinity doctrine so we can fully appreciate Jesus as our High Priest who pleads for all he chooses to plead for!



As I said, Ed - thank you for your thought provoking questions.  From what you posted next, it is clear you do not understand as we do just how Jesus and the 144,000 serve as judges and priests - it seems you think that all 144,001 automatically judge precisely the same as Jehovah judges!


That is false, of course!   There would be no need for 144,001 additional judges and priests if what you believed were true!


Thank Jehovah you are wrong!


(Hebrews 4:15, 16) . . .For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin. 16 Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time.


Did Moses's pleading for Miriam change Jehovah's perfect judgment in respects to Miriam - or did Moses' pleading cause Miriam to be shown additional mercy?  





Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 11:13AM #84
mrjordan
Posts: 2,114

Jun 11, 2012 -- 9:35AM, Ed_3 wrote:


Actually, I stopped posting on this board for my own peace of mind...therefore, I hope that I don't live to regret this. Smile Also, my posts are in orange.





LOL! Completely understandable. Bullets do like to fly around this board. But I do enjoy your post, even though we may not always see eye to eye. You are one of the few that actually address the message of the bible rather than just attacking a person's religion. I rarely (if ever) see you take the easy way in your discussions. Kudos to you for that!

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 5:43PM #85
Newtonian
Posts: 12,145

Ed - Back from our convention "Safeguard Your Heart" and will now study your response and respond later!

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 6:58PM #86
Newtonian
Posts: 12,145


Ed - Good Scriptural points - Jesus does nothing of his own originality - so true - and, of course, disproving the trinity doctrine.   Your points do not negate my points, however.   Jesus really does plead for us, and this is for our benefit.



Jehovah and Jesus are one in a bond of love - so I will illustrate with the bond of love in marriage where the husband and wife become one.   And since I am married, and we are both one in worshipping Jehovah, I will give  you our example.



I am the head as Scripturally determined and explained.   Yet normally neither I nor my wife do anything of our own iniative in the same sense as Jesus.    I.e. any important decision is decided on together.     So, just as I made a decision without my wife for us to attend a seminar on estate planning - as soon as I could I told my wife and she is not so gung ho, so to speak.   Neither she nor I will decide entirely of our own iniative - I listen to her and she listens to me.



Now, normally, I make the final decision - but in a case like that of Jehovah turning all the judging over to the Son - there are some cases where I have delegated the responsibility to my wife -  in harmony with Proverbs 31.  



My point is that your points are both valid and crucial, but they do not mean that Jehovah proceeds as if Jesus was not pleading for us any more than I will proceed as if Mary is not interceding on the above decision.  



This is just an introductory response - obviously we need to study the Bible more in depth (I know I do) to understand more clearly just how pleading prayers to Jehovah through Jesus work - just how Jesus intercedes or acts as mediator in prayer, for example.    And just how Jesus pleads for us.



So here is one of many Bible accounts - and this bears on my question you did not respond to concerning Moses pleading for Miriam.   Remember, Moses was mediator of the old Law Covenant just as Jesus is mediator of the New Covenant - so naturally if Jesus pleads for someone it would certainly have more of an effect than when Moses pleaded for Miriam.  



From Hebrews 7:23-8:6



23 Furthermore, many had to become priests [in succession] because of being prevented by death from continuing as such, 24 but he because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors. 25 Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.



26 For such a high priest as this was suitable for us, loyal, guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens. 27 He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people: (for this he did once for all time when he offered himself up;) 28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.



8Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a public servant of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; wherefore it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If, now, he were upon earth, he would not be a priest, there being [men] who offer the gifts according to the Law, 5 but which [men] are rendering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to make the tent in completion, was given the divine command: For says he: "See that you make all things after [their] pattern that was shown to you in the mountain." 6 But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises.



Now at our convention we were counseled against posting from our literature that is not available online - and this is my first post since receiving that counsel - so I will not be posting from our literature as cut and paste quotes.



I.e. my reign as king of cut and paste, as one poster put it, is over - at least as far as our literature is concerned.



Of course, I will reference our literature - but you will have to find the quotes unless they are available on our websites.



Of course, our literature points to many Scriptures on all Bible subjects, including this one.   In discussing Jesus' role as "sympathetic intercessor" ("Awake," 11/10, p. 21) we are pointed to some of these Scriptures, e.g.:



Jesus healed many people (many Scriptures) and in some cases this involved his forgiving sins - one of the powers given to Jesus by Jehovah:



(Luke 5:20-26) 20 And when he saw their faith he said: "Man, your sins are forgiven you." 21 Thereupon the scribes and the Pharisees started to reason, saying: "Who is this that is speaking blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God alone?" 22 But Jesus, discerning their reasonings, said in answer to them: "What are YOU reasoning out in YOUR hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24 But in order for YOU to know that the Son of man has authority on the earth to forgive sins—" he said to the paralyzed man: "I say to you, Get up and pick up your little bed and be on your way home." 25 And instantly he rose up before them, picked up what he used to lie on and went off to his home, glorifying God. 26 Then an ecstasy seized one and all, and they began to glorify God, and they became filled with fear, saying: "We have seen strange things today!"



But what of the 144,000 underpriests - are they given the power to forgive sins?   Remember, the apostles were given that power.  However, all of us, while not intercessors, are admonished to pray for others - and the Scriptures show such pleadings have much force!



(James 5:16) . . .Therefore openly confess YOUR sins to one another and pray for one another, that YOU may get healed. A righteous man’s supplication, when it is at work, has much force.



See the context.   So, Ed, your questions are excellent - and your posts worthy of more study and response - but, like you above, I will stop there for now.



I hope this subject is comforting to you - after all it involves Jesus being our helper!



(1 John 2:1) . . .we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one.


BTW - I am starting a new thread, for you (and me, and others), concerning Jesus Christ, and referencing articles available on our website online.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 8:19PM #87
Newtonian
Posts: 12,145

 


But, Newtonian, how could they have pleaded for Lot's daughter when Genesis 19:6-14 show that Lot's sons-in-law weren't even around when the mob surrounded Lot's house?


Nonetheless, like some who died in the flood, they scoffed at the warning message Lot conveyed - you failed to finish verse 14!


(Genesis 19:14) 14 Hence Lot went on out and began to speak to his sons-in-law who were to take his daughters, and he kept on saying: “Get up! Get out of this place, because Jehovah is bringing the city to ruin!” But in the eyes of his sons-in-law he seemed like a man who was joking.


Of course, they deserved to die just as those who did not enter the ark deserved to die at the Noahchian flood.  


But, you're comparing apples to oranges, Newtonian. In the flood story, the people of Noah's days had decades to decide whether or not they would get onto Noah's ark...plus, according to the story, they also watched Noah build a gigantic ark that was sitting in front of them and served as a constant reminder of the warning of the flood.


However, with Lot's sons-in-law, they didn't witness the mob surrounding Lot's house and the angels incapacitating them with blindess. Although, I'm sure that if they had witnessed those events, they really wouldn't have had a reason to doubt Lot's warning that Jehovah was going to bring the city to ruin. 


Therefore, I don't understand how you can say that they deserved to die...just because they thought that Lot was joking. Especially, since they didn't have the evidence that Lot had that he indeed was not joking(e.g. a warning from God himself and the angels blinding the mob that had surrounded his house). Evidence that would have caused any reasonable person to not believe that Lot was like a man who was joking




quote author=33922979 post=520217605]


Well, Ed - As I posted, Genesis 9:14 shows the fiances were outside - why do you think they did not see the mob blinded?   The fact that they were not blinded may indicate that they did not join this mob in their evil-doing, but it does not mean they did not plead for Lots' daughters to the mob.


Genesis 9:4 indicates all the people of Sodom were initially in that mob - implying the fiances were there.  However, as I posted and our literature has noted, Lot may have offerred his daughters knowing that they were there and would have pleaded for his daughters.


Nothing in that Bible account indicates they were not around - so from what do you draw that conclusion?  Lot went outside to speak to them - it did not say Lot journeyed to some distance to speak to them!


On that side point - are you sure all those that were destroyed at the flood saw the ark?


Now as to why the fiances might have stayed after seeing the mob blinded (actually only those pressing on the entrance to Lot's home were blinded) - didn't Lot's wife see this - so why did she want to stay behind - why did she disobey the directions for survival?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 8:52PM #88
Newtonian
Posts: 12,145


 


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


It is not that simple either.   Lot's daughters may have or may during the thousand year reign plead for their fiance's in prayer.  Jehovah might not intend to resurrect them anyway - but remember Jesus will also resurrect those whom he wants to!



I'm sorry, Newtonian, but I still don't see why you or the Bible itself makes the two fiancés out to be such bad guys. I mean, were they really all that wicked and deserved to be burned alive...just because they didn't have any proof(as Lot did) that angels were going to burn the city to the ground?


Ed - I agree with you - you didn't get that?   The two fiances may not have been very wicked - they may well deserve to be exceptions to the rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected.  


Rule? What rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected? And would that rule in general have included the children and the babies and the infants in Sodom and Gomorrah? After all, the city involved more than the men who formed the mob around Lot's house...and the men who continuously participated in gross sexual misconduct.


I trust you understand that it was not just wicked people who were killed by Katrina - simply not heeding the warning to evacuate New Orleans did not make them wicked - but it certainly meant their deaths because they did not heed the warning!


People die all the time because they do not heed various wise warnings - and not just warnings by Jehovah's Witnesses either - warnings by meteorologists or the mayor of New Orleans also!   Warnings against smoking is another example.  


Those who ignore those warnings are fuming!Surprised  They go up in smoke!Cry


So, Newtonian, are you saying that Lot's two sons-in-law deserved to share the same fate as those in the city who were proud, haughty, uncharitable, inhospitable, and grossly sexually immoral...just because they didn't heed a last-minute warning, in which they had no proof or no indication that the warning could possibly be true?


Thinking out loud: Oh boy, I can't believe that I'm doing this. ...I've already been working on this post for about an hour....and I think that I'm only about halfway through. :-O




I'm sorry, Newtonian, but I still don't see why you or the Bible itself makes the two fiancés out to be such bad guys. I mean, were they really all that wicked and deserved to be burned alive...just because they didn't have any proof(as Lot did) that angels were going to burn the city to the ground?


Ed - I agree with you - you didn't get that?   The two fiances may not have been very wicked - they may well deserve to be exceptions to the rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected.  


Rule? What rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected? And would that rule in general have included the children and the babies and the infants in Sodom and Gomorrah? After all, the city involved more than the men who formed the mob around Lot's house...and the men who continuously participated in gross sexual misconduct.


I trust you understand that it was not just wicked people who were killed by Katrina - simply not heeding the warning to evacuate New Orleans did not make them wicked - but it certainly meant their deaths because they did not heed the warning!


People die all the time because they do not heed various wise warnings - and not just warnings by Jehovah's Witnesses either - warnings by meteorologists or the mayor of New Orleans also!   Warnings against smoking is another example.  


Those who ignore those warnings are fuming!Surprised  They go up in smoke!Cry


So, Newtonian, are you saying that Lot's two sons-in-law deserved to share the same fate as those in the city who were proud, haughty, uncharitable, inhospitable, and grossly sexually immoral...just because they didn't heed a last-minute warning, in which they had no proof or no indication that the warning could possibly be true?


Thinking out loud: Oh boy, I can't believe that I'm doing this. ...I've already been working on this post for about an hour....and I think that I'm only about halfway through. :-O
____________________`````--------++++=============


_____________________________________===============



Ed - our literature has noted that in general those in Sodom will not be resurrected - but I am not suggesting Lot's fiance's deserved the same judgment at those grossly immoral ones deserved.


Our literature has noted many Scriptures on this - and our conclusion is that these Scriptures do not contradict - for now I will let you reason on these Scriptures:


(Jude 7) So too Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.


So the cities, and hence the people of those cities in general, are in Gehenna with no hope of a resurrrection.   However, there are also these Scriptures noted in our Bible dictionary ("Insight on the Scriptures) - which see, btw.  I added  more Scriptures I found in my personal Bible study:



(Matthew 10:15) . . .Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod′om and Go·mor′rah on Judgment Day than for that city.



(2 Peter 2:4-10) 4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; 6 and by reducing the cities Sod′om and Go·mor′rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come; 7 and he delivered righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the indulgence of the law-defying people in loose conduct— 8 for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds— 9 Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off, 10 especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile [it] and who look down on lordship.. . .



(Matthew 11:23, 24) . . .And you, Ca·per′na·um, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Ha′des you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sod′om, it would have remained until this very day. 24 Consequently I say to YOU people, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod′om on Judgment Day than for you.”



(Luke 10:8-12) . . .“Also, wherever YOU enter into a city and they receive YOU, eat the things set before YOU, 9 and cure the sick ones in it, and go on telling them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to YOU.’ 10 But wherever YOU enter into a city and they do not receive YOU, go out into its broad ways and say, 11 ‘Even the dust that got stuck to our feet from YOUR city we wipe off against YOU. Nevertheless, keep this in mind, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell YOU that it will be more endurable for Sod′om in that day than for that city.



(Luke 17:26-30) 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sod′om it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.



(Romans 9:29) . . .Also, just as Isaiah had said aforetime: “Unless Jehovah of armies had left a seed to us, we should have become just like Sod′om, and we should have been made just like Go·mor′rah.”



(Revelation 11:7, 8) 7 And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled.


In Revelation 11:8 Sodom pictures the world (hence hades) but in Romans 9:29 if the promised seed had not come, the Jews indeed would have had no hope of resurrection - though I need to research that verse more - I don't think in the original fulfillment of Isaiah 1:9 the Jews being destroyed by Assyria were doomed to Gehenna - were they?


Destruction - yes.   But to hades or Gehenna?   In fact, if I am right Jesus may choose to resurrect some - perhaps as a result of pleading for them?  (Ed - btw - I am not being dogmatic on this)


(John


5:21) For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.



 


 



Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 11:32PM #89
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jun 11, 2012 -- 11:13AM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 11, 2012 -- 9:35AM, Ed_3 wrote:


Actually, I stopped posting on this board for my own peace of mind...therefore, I hope that I don't live to regret this. Smile Also, my posts are in orange.





LOL! Completely understandable. Bullets do like to fly around this board. But I do enjoy your post, even though we may not always see eye to eye. You are one of the few that actually address the message of the bible rather than just attacking a person's religion. I rarely (if ever) see you take the easy way in your discussions. Kudos to you for that!



Oh gee, thanks. I try. Embarassed...Wink


Also, perhaps 'peace of mind' is overly rated. Tongue Out

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 11:36PM #90
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jun 14, 2012 -- 6:58PM, Newtonian wrote:



Ed - Good Scriptural points - Jesus does nothing of his own originality - so true - and, of course, disproving the trinity doctrine.   Your points do not negate my points, however.   Jesus really does plead for us, and this is for our benefit.



Jehovah and Jesus are one in a bond of love - so I will illustrate with the bond of love in marriage where the husband and wife become one.   And since I am married, and we are both one in worshipping Jehovah, I will give  you our example.



I am the head as Scripturally determined and explained.   Yet normally neither I nor my wife do anything of our own iniative in the same sense as Jesus.    I.e. any important decision is decided on together.     So, just as I made a decision without my wife for us to attend a seminar on estate planning - as soon as I could I told my wife and she is not so gung ho, so to speak.   Neither she nor I will decide entirely of our own iniative - I listen to her and she listens to me.



Now, normally, I make the final decision - but in a case like that of Jehovah turning all the judging over to the Son - there are some cases where I have delegated the responsibility to my wife -  in harmony with Proverbs 31.  



My point is that your points are both valid and crucial, but they do not mean that Jehovah proceeds as if Jesus was not pleading for us any more than I will proceed as if Mary is not interceding on the above decision.  



This is just an introductory response - obviously we need to study the Bible more in depth (I know I do) to understand more clearly just how pleading prayers to Jehovah through Jesus work - just how Jesus intercedes or acts as mediator in prayer, for example.    And just how Jesus pleads for us.



So here is one of many Bible accounts - and this bears on my question you did not respond to concerning Moses pleading for Miriam.   Remember, Moses was mediator of the old Law Covenant just as Jesus is mediator of the New Covenant - so naturally if Jesus pleads for someone it would certainly have more of an effect than when Moses pleaded for Miriam.  



From Hebrews 7:23-8:6



23 Furthermore, many had to become priests [in succession] because of being prevented by death from continuing as such, 24 but he because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors. 25 Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.



26 For such a high priest as this was suitable for us, loyal, guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens. 27 He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people: (for this he did once for all time when he offered himself up;) 28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.



8Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a public servant of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; wherefore it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If, now, he were upon earth, he would not be a priest, there being [men] who offer the gifts according to the Law, 5 but which [men] are rendering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to make the tent in completion, was given the divine command: For says he: "See that you make all things after [their] pattern that was shown to you in the mountain." 6 But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises.



Now at our convention we were counseled against posting from our literature that is not available online - and this is my first post since receiving that counsel - so I will not be posting from our literature as cut and paste quotes.



I.e. my reign as king of cut and paste, as one poster put it, is over - at least as far as our literature is concerned.



Of course, I will reference our literature - but you will have to find the quotes unless they are available on our websites.



Of course, our literature points to many Scriptures on all Bible subjects, including this one.   In discussing Jesus' role as "sympathetic intercessor" ("Awake," 11/10, p. 21) we are pointed to some of these Scriptures, e.g.:



Jesus healed many people (many Scriptures) and in some cases this involved his forgiving sins - one of the powers given to Jesus by Jehovah:



(Luke 5:20-26) 20 And when he saw their faith he said: "Man, your sins are forgiven you." 21 Thereupon the scribes and the Pharisees started to reason, saying: "Who is this that is speaking blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God alone?" 22 But Jesus, discerning their reasonings, said in answer to them: "What are YOU reasoning out in YOUR hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24 But in order for YOU to know that the Son of man has authority on the earth to forgive sins—" he said to the paralyzed man: "I say to you, Get up and pick up your little bed and be on your way home." 25 And instantly he rose up before them, picked up what he used to lie on and went off to his home, glorifying God. 26 Then an ecstasy seized one and all, and they began to glorify God, and they became filled with fear, saying: "We have seen strange things today!"



But what of the 144,000 underpriests - are they given the power to forgive sins?   Remember, the apostles were given that power.  However, all of us, while not intercessors, are admonished to pray for others - and the Scriptures show such pleadings have much force!



(James 5:16) . . .Therefore openly confess YOUR sins to one another and pray for one another, that YOU may get healed. A righteous man’s supplication, when it is at work, has much force.



See the context.   So, Ed, your questions are excellent - and your posts worthy of more study and response - but, like you above, I will stop there for now.



I hope this subject is comforting to you - after all it involves Jesus being our helper!



(1 John 2:1) . . .we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one.


BTW - I am starting a new thread, for you (and me, and others), concerning Jesus Christ, and referencing articles available on our website online.




Sorry, Newt, but my poor old brain can only take in so much at a time. But perhaps I'll read this post some other time.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 9 of 12  •  Prev 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook