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Switch to Forum Live View How are these scriptures suppose to portray a loving God?
2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 4:27PM #51
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

May 29, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 3:27PM, mrjordan wrote:


Glad to hear you say that. Jesus who was once human and knows what we have to deal with will be our judge. John 5:22. I am very thankful that Jehovah is wise enough to place Jesus, who knows what it is like to be human, as our judge.




Even he expects us to be willing to abandon our loved one's if they don't follow suit.  They don't have to be bad people, they just have to disagree with him.  Matthew 10:34-39. 


No room for middle ground with Jesus either, you either get on board or die.  Matthew 12:30.






Truthwillset - Are you trying to pick verses to condemn Jesus and Jehovah's judgment?   Whatever your motive, you are avoiding the verses that clarify matters - see my above posts.


Yes, Matthew 12:30 is true - but remember Jehovah and Jesus love their enemies - see Matthew 5:44.


Who was a greater enemy than Saul of Tarsus?   Saul was a Pharisee, and Jesus had already stated the Pharisees (like Sodom) were doomed to Gehenna.   So, then, was Saul doomed to Gehenna?


Was he????


From your judgment of Jesus' judgement, the answer would be yes!   But, thankfully, you do not know Jehovah or Jesus and thus you are condemning them for things wrongly.


You see, Jesus, as Isaiah 11 states, judges the heart - not just the outward actions.   Jesus saw Saul's heart!   He saw something good there!   The Christian congregation - albeit God's congregation - did not see this in Saul.   How could they as Saul approved of the murder of their loved ones!


But Jesus saw a basis for mercy for this Pharisee!   So much so he personally intervened to help Saul see the error of his ways!


Jehovah's Witnesses defend Jehovah and Jesus as righteous and good and are so thankful Jehovah has anointed Jesus not only as our King, but also as our Judge and as our High Priest - to plead for all Jesus chooses to plead for.


These verses bear repeating:


(John 5:21, 22) For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 4:29PM #52
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

May 29, 2012 -- 4:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


So you are saying you want nothing to do with Jesus?




I thought they were a package deal!

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 4:47PM #53
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

May 29, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Newtonian wrote:


Truthwillset - Are you trying to pick verses to condemn Jesus and Jehovah's judgment?   Whatever your motive, you are avoiding the verses that clarify matters - see my above posts.


Yes, Matthew 12:30 is true - but remember Jehovah and Jesus love their enemies - see Matthew 5:44.


tws: So much so that they're going to kill them if they don't love and worship them?


Who was a greater enemy than Saul of Tarsus?   Saul was a Pharisee, and Jesus had already stated the Pharisees (like Sodom) were doomed to Gehenna.   So, then, was Saul doomed to Gehenna?


Was he????


tws: Of course, if he didn't become a believer he was a dead man!


From your judgment of Jesus' judgement, the answer would be yes!   But, thankfully, you do not know Jehovah or Jesus and thus you are condemning them for things wrongly.


tws: just pointing out that our "loving" heavenly father, and his son, have given us two choices.  Our actions matter not, we either love and worship them or die.  Am I wrong?


You see, Jesus, as Isaiah 11 states, judges the heart - not just the outward actions.   Jesus saw Saul's heart!   He saw something good there!   The Christian congregation - albeit God's congregation - did not see this in Saul.   How could they as Saul approved of the murder of their loved ones!


tws: okay, so what is the basis of salvation?  If it's "what's in our heart" then why are you preaching?  If it's exercising faith in Jesus than anyone who chooses not to, regardless of heart condition, will be judged and executed including children. 


But Jesus saw a basis for mercy for this Pharisee!   So much so he personally intervened to help Saul see the error of his ways!


tws: why doesn't he do that for everyone?  If he is truly concerned whether people are saved or not.


Jehovah's Witnesses defend Jehovah and Jesus as righteous and good and are so thankful Jehovah has anointed Jesus not only as our King, but also as our Judge and as our High Priest - to plead for all Jesus chooses to plead for.


These verses bear repeating:


(John 5:21, 22) For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,





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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 4:48PM #54
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

May 29, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 3:27PM, mrjordan wrote:


Glad to hear you say that. Jesus who was once human and knows what we have to deal with will be our judge. John 5:22. I am very thankful that Jehovah is wise enough to place Jesus, who knows what it is like to be human, as our judge.




Even he expects us to be willing to abandon our loved one's if they don't follow suit.  They don't have to be bad people, they just have to disagree with him.  Matthew 10:34-39. 


No room for middle ground with Jesus either, you either get on board or die.  Matthew 12:30.





Truthwillset - I already responded on Mt. 12:30.  Mathew 10:34-39 does not teach anyone to abandon loved ones!    What a terrible interpretation you put on those verses!  


Believing interpretations like that, I can understand why you do not love Jesus!   Problem is, you do not actually understand the teachings of Jesus - we know Jesus taught us to love one another - you apparently do not realize this!


Thankfully, Jesus has appointed a slave faithful to Jehovah and Jesus - the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24:45-47.   And that slave has helped us get to know and grow in love for Jehovah and Jesus - which, btw, means eternal life as John 17:3 shows.


So, for example, the slave has helped us understand better the account in Matthew 10 you cited and other accounts - for example here:


"The


Snare of Family Opposition


3


Jesus did not minimize the hardship that may result when others in the family oppose the member that accepts his teachings. “A man’s enemies will be persons of his own household,” Jesus said. Yet, despite that sad consequence, Jesus showed who should come first by saying: “He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:34-37) We put Jehovah God first by following the teachings of his Son, Jesus Christ, who is “the exact representation of [God’s] very being.”—Hebrews 1:3; John 14:9.


4


On another occasion when Jesus was discussing what is really involved in being his true follower, he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26) Jesus obviously did not mean that his followers should literally hate their family members, since he commanded people to love even their enemies. (Matthew 5:44) Rather, Jesus here meant that his followers must love family members less than they love God. (Compare Matthew 6:24.) In keeping with that understanding, the Bible says that Jacob “hated” Leah and loved Rachel, which meant that he did not love Leah as much as he loved her sister, Rachel. (Genesis 29:30-32) Even our own “soul,” or life, Jesus said, should be hated, or loved less, than Jehovah!" - "The Watchtower," 10/1/95, pp. 8,9.


So, you see, Jesus did indeed teach us to love all, especially our own household - as did his followers, e.g.:


(1 Timothy 5:8) . . .Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith. . .

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 5:01PM #55
mrjordan
Posts: 2,168

May 29, 2012 -- 4:29PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


So you are saying you want nothing to do with Jesus?




I thought they were a package deal!




Nice defection to the question. Wink

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 5:09PM #56
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

May 29, 2012 -- 5:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:29PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


So you are saying you want nothing to do with Jesus?




I thought they were a package deal!




Nice defection to the question.




I thought that answered the question.  If I don't want anything to do with God, why would want anything to do with Jesus?  Isn't he just doing God's bidding anyway?

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 5:16PM #57
mrjordan
Posts: 2,168

May 29, 2012 -- 5:09PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 5:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:29PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


So you are saying you want nothing to do with Jesus?




I thought they were a package deal!




Nice defection to the question.




I thought that answered the question.  If I don't want anything to do with God, why would want anything to do with Jesus?  Isn't he just doing God's bidding anyway?




That makes me sad. Perhaps one day you will hear Jehovah calling for you, I guess today is not that day.

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 5:24PM #58
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

Truthwillset - Since you chose red, I will choose blue.   At least we will not be black and blue!Smile


May 29, 2012 -- 4:47PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Newtonian wrote:


Truthwillset - Are you trying to pick verses to condemn Jesus and Jehovah's judgment?   Whatever your motive, you are avoiding the verses that clarify matters - see my above posts.


Yes, Matthew 12:30 is true - but remember Jehovah and Jesus love their enemies - see Matthew 5:44.


tws: So much so that they're going to kill them if they don't love and worship them?


Why didn't Jehovah sentence Adam and Eve to death for their lack of love which was shown by the fact that they had not had children nor had they cultivated the earth?  


We do not teach only Jehovah's Witnesses will be resurrected.



Who was a greater enemy than Saul of Tarsus?   Saul was a Pharisee, and Jesus had already stated the Pharisees (like Sodom) were doomed to Gehenna.   So, then, was Saul doomed to Gehenna?


Was he????


tws: Of course, if he didn't become a believer he was a dead man!


Hmmm.  Paul became a believer.   Didn't Paul die?


From your judgment of Jesus' judgement, the answer would be yes!   But, thankfully, you do not know Jehovah or Jesus and thus you are condemning them for things wrongly.


tws: just pointing out that our "loving" heavenly father, and his son, have given us two choices.  Our actions matter not, we either love and worship them or die.  Am I wrong?


You are wrong.  All humans die.   You missed Isaiah 26:7-10 - when the wicked are resurrected (Acts 24:15) they may or may not choose to become righteous and learn God's ways as Paul did.


You see, Jesus, as Isaiah 11 states, judges the heart - not just the outward actions.   Jesus saw Saul's heart!   He saw something good there!   The Christian congregation - albeit God's congregation - did not see this in Saul.   How could they as Saul approved of the murder of their loved ones!


tws: okay, so what is the basis of salvation?  If it's "what's in our heart" then why are you preaching?  If it's exercising faith in Jesus than anyone who chooses not to, regardless of heart condition, will be judged and executed including children. 


There are many verses showing many things are involved with salvation - that would be a long post!   Here is one:


(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.


NW footnote: Or, “their knowing you.” Gr., hi′na gi·no′sko·si se.


You clearly do not know Jehovah or Jesus - which is why you are wrongly accusing them.   Why am I preaching?   Well, for one thing - I love you because Jesus loves you and wants you to get to know Jehovah and Jesus and gain eternal life as a result - since that will then lead to what 1 John 4:8 says. 


You are missing why we are responding to you - we are being moved by the kindly quality of God:


(Romans 2:4) . . .Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know that the kindly [quality] of God is trying to lead you to repentance?



But Jesus saw a basis for mercy for this Pharisee!   So much so he personally intervened to help Saul see the error of his ways!


tws: why doesn't he do that for everyone?  If he is truly concerned whether people are saved or not.


He does do that for everyone - but you are not realizing it.   Of course, that process is not complete yet!   Why do you think Armageddon has not come yet?   Perhaps you do not realize Jehovah desires all to attain to repentance?



(Mark 13:10) Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first.



(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.



(2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.



Jehovah's Witnesses defend Jehovah and Jesus as righteous and good and are so thankful Jehovah has anointed Jesus not only as our King, but also as our Judge and as our High Priest - to plead for all Jesus chooses to plead for.


These verses bear repeating:


(John 5:21, 22) For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,









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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 5:30PM #59
Kemmer
Posts: 16,553

You are wrong.  All humans die.   You missed Isaiah 26:7-10 - when the wicked are resurrected (Acts 24:15) they may or may not choose to become righteous and learn God's ways as Paul did.



Do any sects besides the JWs and Mormons think people will have a second chance after death to become a JW or a Mormon and live happily ever after, or risk eternal annihilation by turning up their defunct noses at the choices?

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 5:51PM #60
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

May 29, 2012 -- 5:09PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 5:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:29PM, Truthwillset wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:01PM, mrjordan wrote:


So you are saying you want nothing to do with Jesus?




I thought they were a package deal!




Nice defection to the question.




I thought that answered the question.  If I don't want anything to do with God, why would want anything to do with Jesus?  Isn't he just doing God's bidding anyway?





Truthwillset - I am moved by the kindly quality of God to try to help you get to know Jehovah and Jesus.   Problem is you are so convinced Jehovah and Jesus do not care about you that you are not really considering the many things I have posted to you.


That is up to you.   But please do not condemn Jehovah and Jesus, who are moving me through the Holy Spirit, in harmony with what the Bible teaches, to try help you see that kindly quality of God!


And, no, Jesus does not simply do God's bidding.  Jesus loves Jehovah and Jehovah loves Jesus.  You continue to miss the love of Jehovah and Jesus!


I hope you realize the trinity doctrine is false!


Notice what Jesus prayed to Jehovah:


(John 17:10) . . .and all my things are yours and yours are mine. . .


Now the context shows that Jehovah "gave" [Greek: edoken] Jesus all these things.  Do you recognize John 17:10 as an expression of love - like I have said to my wife that all my things are hers and all her things are mine?


And Jesus also prayed to Jehovah these words:


(John 17:20-26) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”


You see the reason why Jesus' true followers are one just as Jesus and Jehovah are one?


Do you?


It is love!   You have missed that paramount reason for the sacred union/unity -  the bond of love, the perfect bond of union!   [Not simply doing someone's bidding - my how you have missed the love involved!]


(Colossians 3:14) . . .But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love, for it is a perfect bond of union.





 

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