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Switch to Forum Live View How are these scriptures suppose to portray a loving God?
3 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 10:01AM #71
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

Jeremiah 19:7-9


New International Version (NIV)



“‘In this place I will ruina]">[a] the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who want to kill them, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds and the wild animals. I will devastate this city and make it an object of horror and scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh because their enemies will press the siege so hard against them to destroy them.’


I can feel the love can't you?

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3 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:53PM #72
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

Exodus 21:20-21


New International Version (NIV)



20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

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3 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 1:02PM #73
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

Hosea 13:16


New International Version (NIV)




16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
    because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
    their pregnant women ripped open.”a]">[a]


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3 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 9:02AM #74
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

Exodus 21:2-4


New International Version (NIV)



Hebrew Servants


“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 1:51PM #75
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

Hosea 9:11-16


New International Version (NIV)




11 Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird —
    no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
12 Even if they rear children,
    I will bereave them of every one.
Woe to them
    when I turn away from them!
13 I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre,
    planted in a pleasant place.
But Ephraim will bring out
    their children to the slayer.”




14 Give them, Lord
    what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry
    and breasts that are dry.




15 “Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal,
    I hated them there.
Because of their sinful deeds,
    I will drive them out of my house.
I will no longer love them;
    all their leaders are rebellious.
16 Ephraim is blighted,
    their root is withered,
    they yield no fruit.
Even if they bear children,
    I will slay their cherished offspring.”




Still waiting for someone to explain how these verses demonstrate that "God is love".


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3 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 2:28PM #76
Kemmer
Posts: 17,004

Jun 1, 2012 -- 9:02AM, Truthwillset wrote:



Exodus 21:2-4


New International Version (NIV)



Hebrew Servants


“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.




No doubt this lovely little example of God's overweening love was quoted 200 years ago as a Georgia plantatation owner sold a slave husband downstate, leaving his wife and 3 children to fend for themselves. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 4:19AM #77
Ed_3
Posts: 500

May 29, 2012 -- 11:49PM, Kemmer wrote:


Newtonian, I don't understand why you say that the two fiancés still deserved to die as they did not obey. Also, I know that your literature has brought up that the reason why Lot offered his daughters to the mob was for the reason that the two fiancés might plead for Lot daughters, however, Genesis 19:6-14a shows that the two fiancés weren't even around when Lot offered his daughters to the mob



You two--Newt & Ed3--ought to write saucy novels based on scriptural mythology.  The Left Behind crowd would eat them up.



So are you saying that we could get paid for this? Surprised

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 1:57PM #78
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

Webster's Bible Translation
When its boughs are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will show them no favor.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 4:15PM #79
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

May 30, 2012 -- 10:01AM, Truthwillset wrote:



Jeremiah 19:7-9


New International Version (NIV)



“‘In this place I will ruina]">[a] the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who want to kill them, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds and the wild animals. I will devastate this city and make it an object of horror and scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh because their enemies will press the siege so hard against them to destroy them.’


I can feel the love can't you?




Yes, truthwillset, I can feel the love and the resulting lamentations just as Jeremiah did when Jehovah inspired him by Holy Spirit to write the book of Lamentations.   Of course, you have ignored what I already posted from the context which clarifies how Jehovah feels and shows how Jehovah's 4 cardinal attributes work together - namely: love, justice, wisdom and power.   Or more specifically how Jehovah's justice is tempered by his love and mercy. 


Remember I posted what preceded this prophecy in the chapter before?   Reposting:


(Jeremiah 18:5-10) . . .And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 6 “‘Am I not able to do just like this potter to YOU people, O house of Israel?’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter, so YOU are in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 At any moment that I may speak against a nation and against a kingdom to uproot [it] and to pull [it] down and to destroy [it], 8 and that nation actually turns back from its badness against which I spoke, I will also feel regret over the calamity that I had thought to execute upon it. 9 But at any moment that I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom to build [it] up and to plant [it], 10 and it actually does what is bad in my eyes by not obeying my voice, I will also feel regret over the good that I said [to myself] to do for its good.’


Sadly, the nation of Israel did not turn back from its bad way, and therefore we have the book of Lamentations written by Jeremiah.


Of course, this calamity is not directly caused by Jehovah as Armageddon will be - though those who will kill each other are not forced by Jehovah to do so.  


Did you realize this prophecy was fulfilled - and that it was initially foretold in the Torah (aka Pentateuch)?   Understanding how the prophecy was fullfilled also is necessary for correct interpretation of the verses you quoted - i.e. context (as per Svetlana's thread on context, btw).


Jehovah' Witnesses, like Jeremiah, do feel Jehovah's love and compassion - as our new book on Jeremiah conveys when explaining this context:


Chapter


Thirteen


“Jehovah


Has Done What He Had in Mind”


JERUSALEM lay in ruins. Smoke still rose from the fires the conquering Babylonians had lit. Jeremiah could recall the ghastly shrieks of those being slain. He had been told what was to happen, and events unfolded exactly as God had said. “Jehovah has done what he had in mind,” sighed the prophet. What a tragedy Jerusalem’s downfall had been!—Read Lamentations 2:17.


2


Yes, Jeremiah saw the fulfillment of many prophecies conveyed to God’s people, including ancient prophecies. Centuries earlier, Moses set before Israel the consequences of obeying or disobeying God—either “the blessing” or “the malediction.” Jehovah wanted the best for his people, the blessings. The maledictions resulting from disobedience, on the other hand, would be horrendous. Moses warned—and Jeremiah later repeated—that those ignoring and opposing Jehovah would even “eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters.” (Deut. 30:19, 20; Jer. 19:9; Lev. 26:29) ‘Could such an awful thing actually happen?’ some may have wondered. Well, during the Babylonian siege, when food was not to be found, that did occur. “The very hands of compassionate women have boiled their own children,” Jeremiah reported. “They have become as bread of consolation to one during the breakdown of the daughter of my people.” (Lam. 4:10) What a tragedy!


3


Of course, Jehovah’s purpose in commissioning prophets like Jeremiah was not simply to announce impending doom. God wanted his people to return to a course of faithfulness. He wanted sinners to repent. Ezra pointed this out: “Jehovah the God of their forefathers kept sending against them by means of his messengers, sending again and again, because he felt compassion for his people and for his dwelling.”—2 Chron. 36:15; read Jeremiah 26:3, 12, 13.


4


Like Jehovah, Jeremiah felt compassion for his people. You can see that from what he said before Jerusalem’s fall. He was deeply perturbed by that looming disaster. This was a catastrophe that could be averted if only the people would listen to and obey the message Jeremiah bore! Try to imagine Jeremiah’s emotions as he delivered God’s message. “O my intestines, my intestines!” he cried. “I am in severe pains in the walls of my heart. My heart is boisterous within me. I cannot keep silent, for the sound of the horn is what my soul has heard, the alarm signal of war.” (Jer. 4:19) He simply could not keep quiet about the approaching calamity." - "God’s Word for Us Through Jeremiah," pp. 154- 156.


Yes,  Jehovah's Witnesses defend Jehovah as our loving Creator against those who would quote verses out of context to paint God as cruel.   And all of Jehovah's Witnesses will be studying the above chapter in our new book on Jeremiah soon!


We realize also that Jehovah does not desire any to be destroyed at the approaching calamity at Armageddon - showing Jehovah's love as one reason Armageddon has not come yet as many of us thought it would by now:


(2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.





 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 5:09PM #80
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Hi Ed!   My response is in blue:


May 29, 2012 -- 10:13PM, Ed_3 wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - Well, I am still learning myself - thanks to your good questions.   And the personal Bible study the slave has encouraged us to do.


I never considered before the difference between the judgment seat of God and the judgment seat of Christ in reference to the resurrection - or, for that matter, the judgment on deeds performed after the resurrection.


This important detail I learned from my personal Bible study:


(John 5:21, 22) 21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,


Well, obviously, the Father, Jehovah, had judged many in the past - including those in Sodom.   But now things have changed!  


At least, from my understanding of John 5:21 - Jesus chooses to resurrrect some Jehovah had not chosen to resurrect!



Huh? I'm sorry, but I don't get how you get that from John 5:21.


John 5:21 shows that Jehovah resurrects some and Jesus resurrects others - you get something different from this verse?


Job knew that Jehovah would resurrect him, thus he wrote:


(Job 14:13-15) . . .O that in She′ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.


Daniel did not specify who would resurrect those asleep in the ground of dust (Daniel 12:2) though this immediately follows Michael standing up (Daniel 12:1) - Jesus specified it would be at the sound of his voice (the archangel's voice as in Thessalonians):


(John 5:25-30) . . .“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


Now, it may not be so simple.   I give the example of Lot's daughter's fiances to show how complex this can become.


First, those two men may have pleaded for Lot's daughters before the mob - our literature has brought up that as a reason why Lot offerred his daughters to the mob - knowing their fiance's would intervene for his daughters.


Well, what if they did?   This would be a basis for mercy - though they still deserved to die as they did not obey. 



Newtonian, I don't understand why you say that the two fiancés still deserved to die as they did not obey. Also, I know that your literature has brought up that the reason why Lot offered his daughters to the mob was for the reason that the two fiancés might plead for Lot daughters, however, Genesis 19:6-14a shows that the two fiancés weren't even around when Lot offered his daughters to the mob(emphasis mine):


Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”


“Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.


10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.


12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else heresons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”


14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law...


Ed - good point - as I said, Lot's Sons-in-law were outside and Lot knew this and likely expected them to plead for his daughters to the mob outside.


Nonetheless, like some who died in the flood, they scoffed at the warning message Lot conveyed - you failed to finish verse 14!


(Genesis 19:14) 14 Hence Lot went on out and began to speak to his sons-in-law who were to take his daughters, and he kept on saying: “Get up! Get out of this place, because Jehovah is bringing the city to ruin!” But in the eyes of his sons-in-law he seemed like a man who was joking.


Of course, they deserved to die just as those who did not enter the ark deserved to die at the Noahchian flood.  




quote author=33922979 post=520217605]


It is not that simple either.   Lot's daughters may have or may during the thousand year reign plead for their fiance's in prayer.  Jehovah might not intend to resurrect them anyway - but remember Jesus will also resurrect those whom he wants to!



I'm sorry, Newtonian, but I still don't see why you or the Bible itself makes the two fiancés out to be such bad guys. I mean, were they really all that wicked and deserved to be burned alive...just because they didn't have any proof(as Lot did) that angels were going to burn the city to the ground?


Ed - I agree with you - you didn't get that?   The two fiances may not have been very wicked - they may well deserve to be exceptions to the rule that those who were destroyed in Sodom will never be resurrected.   I trust you understand that it was not just wicked people who were killed by Katrina - simply not heeding the warning to evacuate New Orleans did not make them wicked - but it certainly meant their deaths because they did not heed the warning!


People die all the time because they do not heed various wise warnings - and not just warnings by Jehovah's Witnesses either - warnings by meteorologists or the mayor of New Orleans also!   Warnings against smoking is another example.  


Those who ignore those warnings are fuming!Surprised  They go up in smoke!Cry


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


 If this possible prayer of those women during the thousand year reign of Jesus involves proper desire, as well it might be, then this promise is involved:


(Psalm 145:16) You are opening your hand And satisfying the desire of every living thing.


But, you say - isn't Jehovah's judgment perfect?   Yes!  They may well deserve to be dead forever!   However, remember how much Jesus loved mankind!  (Proverbs 8:31)


If Jehovah's judgment was the final say and Jesus could not as judge extend further mercy, then how is it Jesus pleads for us before Jehovah?


(Hebrews 7:25) . . .Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.


In other words, Jesus pleads for those whom he chooses to plead for - and he resurrects those whom he chooses to resurrect.   This pleading is not meaningless - as the trinity doctrine might make it seem.  


Jesus' will is separate and distinct from Jehovah's will - this is a real pleading.



But, Newtonian, the scriptures are very ambiguous on this. In some verses it says that Jesus isn't doing his will, but the will of the father. But in other scriptures, like the ones that you pointed out, it makes it sound like Jesus is in charge...distinct from the Father. However though, if the Father is suppose to be the sovereign of the universe, then how can anything really take place if it's not actually according to the Father's will? Therefore, Newtonian, according to scripture, there really is no such thing as Jesus' will being distinct from the Father's will.


Ed, you contradicted yourself above - the Scriptures do show that Jesus' will is separate and distinct from his Father's will - otherwise, how could Jesus plead for us before Jehovah - how could his serving as intercessor as High Priest make any sense?    Remember, the Bible does NOT teach the trinity doctrine!   The Bible does teach Jesus and Jehovah are one in unity just as Jehovah's Witnesses are:


(John 17:20-23) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. . .


I trust you realize that the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are one with each other and with Jehovah and Jesus does not contradict the fact that we can plead for any of our brothers and sisters in prayer - or that the 144,000 underpriests will indeed also plead for us?


May 29, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Newtonian wrote:


So, as Mr. Jordan just posted - I also am so glad Jesus has been given the privilege and responsibility of judging.


No wonder Isaiah desired Jehovah in the night when he pondered Jehovah's judgments for the earth!  (Isaiah 26:7-10).   What a wonderful Judge we have in Jesus!


(Isaiah 11:1-5) . . .And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jes′se; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful. 2 And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah; 3 and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah. And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. 4 And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. And he must strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the spirit of his lips he will put the wicked one to death. 5 And righteousness must prove to be the belt of his hips, and faithfulness the belt of his loins.


And I am so thankful we have broken free from the trinity doctrine so we can fully appreciate Jesus as our High Priest who pleads for all he chooses to plead for!



As I said, Ed - thank you for your thought provoking questions.  From what you posted next, it is clear you do not understand as we do just how Jesus and the 144,000 serve as judges and priests - it seems you think that all 144,001 automatically judge precisely the same as Jehovah judges!


That is false, of course!   There would be no need for 144,001 additional judges and priests if what you believed were true!


Thank Jehovah you are wrong!


(Hebrews 4:15, 16) . . .For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin. 16 Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time.


Did Moses's pleading for Miriam change Jehovah's perfect judgment in respects to Miriam - or did Moses' pleading cause Miriam to be shown additional mercy?  

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