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Switch to Forum Live View Why Are You Sure God loves You?
3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 6:58AM #61
Keyfer
Posts: 2,979

May 21, 2012 -- 10:46PM, F1fan wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 9:14PM, Keyfer wrote:

There is a peace in knowing and trusting God. He is good, He is not against anyone but He is opposed to evil, malicious behavior and will not allow it in His kingdom.



That's fine for god's kingdom.  But I take it that does not include life on earth.  I suggest that because when nature alows a small child to develop Leukemia, a blood cancer, and it suffers for years in a fruitless effort to safe its life, is god not accountable?  If that isn't malice, is god simply indifferent to that child?  If it isn't evil, why does god allow nature to do this?  Couldn't he prevent such disease until after childhood is over?


I believe that at one time, in the distant past, all people looked to God as Father (Protector and Provider) and thought of others as siblings. We all had a “we are all in this together” attitude, things were heavenly. Gradually, we moved toward a “God is dead and its every man for himself” attitude, things became more hellish. We changed from being unselfish to being selfish. We distanced ourselves from God and violated His laws. The result is sickness, disease, a polluted world and all kinds of natural disasters. We don’t want to take responsibility so we come up with false ideas such as:


1- There is no God.


2- If there is a God, He is evil, incompetent or unconcerned.


3- There are many gods but they don’t care.


4- The gods are selfish like us.


 


The list could go on and on. 



The good news is:


1- God has not moved away from us, we have moved from away from Him which means that we can move back to Him. 


2- He is not interested in punishing us, evil is its own punishment and we have all suffered (and continue to suffer). He wants his children (all of us) back. 



We get back by forsaking selfish, materialistic ways and adopting unselfish, unmaterialistic ways. I started out by doing little things like leaving a closer parking space for someone else and giving a dollar to someone asking for help on the street without worrying about how he will spend it. It is a slow and difficult climb but we have God’s help and eternity to do it. 



The idea that life in this physical world is all there is is a result of moving away from God and His ways. Life is eternal. Each of us will spent eternity somewhere. I want to spend eternity as close to God and my heavenly family as possible. God is real and heaven is real and they are present and attainable. There are people living on this earth who are experiencing a heavenly life because they have chosen to live in harmony with God’s laws of love and justice and it will get better and better for them as time passes. We each have a choice to make, we each have been given the power to live or die. I choose life.


When a person decides to take responsibility for their behavior and to forsake prohibited behavior, that person enters into a harmony with God and His universe that cannot be understood apart from experiencing it. This peace gives an assurance that all is well and always will be.



Do you mean psychologically since such folks might die from illness too?  


I mean actually. You are talking about the death of this physical body. Everyone whether sick or well will experience the death of their physical body. We each will wake up in a spiritual world with a spiritual body and life will go on forever. The quality of that life is up to us individually.


what about chemical imbalances that can't be cured?  Is all well to those people as well?


 


The spiritual reality that I am talking about transcends the physical reality that we are experiencing now but they do overlap, they affect each other. About 8 yrs. ago I had to go the hospital for a week with a kidney stone. All was well with me even though I suffered greatly. I came out of the hospital closer to and more in love with God than when I went in. Amazingly, it was a positive experience for me. It was there that I first willingly prayed, “Your will, in your way, in your time”. I knew that He was with me and taking care of me and that whether I lived or died, all would be well. I am no one special, He feels the same about you and all people. I have experienced instantaneous healing and I have suffered long and hard with sickness on the physical level but, as I said, the spiritual reality that I experience transcends the physical. The physical is real but transient, the spiritual is eternal.


Could it be that this only works for healthy people, those capable of finding peace of mind through their own efforts?  


It works for all people because we are all spiritual beings temporarily living in physical bodies in a physical world. Physical health is a wonderful thing but if it prevents a person from realizing their spiritual needs, it can be more of a curse than a blessing.


Wouldn't you admit that non-theistic meditation acheives the same psychological well-being?


Non-theistic meditation pulls one away from God. Theistic meditation draws one closer to God. God is our life. Psychological well-being is the result of being connected to God and our heavenly family, being “home” and feeling safe. It is possible to experience this while in the physical body, its a choice. 


It is possible to feel psychologically well while living a life apart from God when one is physically healthy and all is going well in other areas but when calamity strikes, when the transient, physical things begin to fade (and they will), that well being can fade as well. 



I imagine that it is possible to be persuaded that there is no God, that the universe created itself, that all things end with the death of the body and to maintain a “healthy, happy, grateful” psychological state to the end. I suspect some people live this type of life but it is just a way of coping for those who don’t know or won’t accept the truth, imo. 




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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 7:53AM #62
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,748

"That's fine for god's kingdom.  But I take it that does not include life on earth.  I suggest that because when nature alows a small child to develop Leukemia, a blood cancer, and it suffers for years in a fruitless effort to safe its life, is god not accountable?  If that isn't malice, is god simply indifferent to that child?  If it isn't evil, why does god allow nature to do this?  Couldn't he prevent such disease until after childhood is over?"


Unfortunately babies are born into the world we've created.


Why angy at God?


Has He polluted our waterways, devastated land, sent carcinogenic residues from our nuclear warheads into the atmosphere into the air we all breathe? New viruses are being discovered every day. There's no medecine for it because they are new. It did not come down from heaven.


We stuff it up then demand - why does god allow this? Why not? He allows it because we want it. We want it because we don't stop it. We sow we reap.


If everybody stood up against shameful ammount of money spent on the best ways to kill other humans in a most painful ways, we'd have plenty to heal poverty, have peace, and all resources would go into healthy food and water and nature would sing with joy. 


 


 

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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 8:29AM #63
lope
Posts: 11,796

May 21, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Paladinsf wrote:


"God is able but not willing.  He wants us to have the ability to love others and repond to His love.  This is not a very profound thought."


Then screw em! If it willing to help get the F* out of the way. Don't go away mad. Just go away. This is not a very profound thought.




Not much thought here, just attempt at criticism.

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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 8:32AM #64
lope
Posts: 11,796

May 21, 2012 -- 11:06PM, Paladinsf wrote:


"But no matter how we mere mortals 'try' to picture God and His ways, it's my understanding that there's a problem with wanting God to get out of the way, if that’s who you’re referring to! For creation to exist He can't get out of the way!  Not only is the desire for such have to come from a complete lack of spiritual understanding but the physical and spiritual laws which operate the universe operates through His power! As to the statement ‘God is able but not willing’, to my way of thinking, this is wrong and not reality!  It’s taking a choice from someone who, imho, also shows a lack of spiritual understanding and insight into the ways of God.  If the Love of God were to be removed for one second we would all cease to exist and THIS indeed would be an unloving act!  It seems to me that God’s method is all about every last one of us, believers or not, learning about and refining our spirituality while here ..."




What total nonsense. You have none zero nada zilch evidence that there IS a "spiritual understanding" that differs from mythology.


Take these 2 statements


Unicorns are not real never have been they are the product of human imagination.


Gods are not real never have been they are the product of human imagination.


Provide us with the objective test you apply that establishes statement one is true and statement two is false.


Show your work profound and insightful one.





So you know what is the limit of reality.  I don't think so.

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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 8:37AM #65
lope
Posts: 11,796

May 21, 2012 -- 6:44PM, Seefan wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Paladinsf wrote:

  "God is able but not willing.  He wants us to have the ability to love others and repond to His love.  This is not a very profound thought."


Then screw em! If it willing to help get the F* out of the way. Don't go away mad. Just go away. This is not a very profound thought. 



No Paladinsf, not very profound – lol!  You've had better ...


But no matter how we mere mortals 'try' to picture God and His ways, it's my understanding that there's a problem with wanting God to get out of the way, if that’s who you’re referring to! For creation to exist He can't get out of the way!  Not only is the desire for such have to come from a complete lack of spiritual understanding but the physical and spiritual laws which operate the universe operates through His power! As to the statement ‘God is able but not willing’, to my way of thinking, this is wrong and not reality!  It’s taking a choice from someone who, imho, also shows a lack of spiritual understanding and insight into the ways of God.  If the Love of God were to be removed for one second we would all cease to exist and THIS indeed would be an unloving act!  It seems to me that God’s method is all about every last one of us, believers or not, learning about and refining our spirituality while here ...


I think if each ‘one of us’ were to ask if I am part of the solution or part of the problem and stop passing the buck as so many tend to, the ability to acquire divine qualities such as love, no matter where one thinks it comes from, would be much greater and humanity would be moving much faster towards that promise of international peace religion keeps talking about ...


 




The ability to love can only exist if one has the ability to chose to not love.  God wants us to have the ability to love.  Therefore He does not remove our ability to not love.  To not love is evil.  That is why God is able to remove evil but not willing to do so.

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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 8:40AM #66
lope
Posts: 11,796

May 21, 2012 -- 10:34PM, F1fan wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 6:08PM, dio wrote:


Youall don't seem to get it, God is the soul of creation.




Of course this is all symbolism.  Creation is a word to symbolize nature, from an ancient context.  Soul symbolizes some sort of divine element in anything, but is a projection of an idea, not reality.  And as for gods .... well, over 5000 of them, none of which has any evidence.  They tend to represent human traits for better or worse.  They represent our ideals, much of what we hope to be.  


There, have I properly informed those who don't get it?





Except you don't know that soul is not a reality.

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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 8:49AM #67
lope
Posts: 11,796

May 21, 2012 -- 6:44PM, Blü wrote:


keyfer


I fail to see how the argument works. When God created us with free will, He put each of us in the driver’s seat of our own life


Even if your statement's completely correct, it doesn't explain the inaction of Yahweh against natural disasters - genetic disorders, cancer, earthquakes, volcanos, hurricanes, drought, flood, plague &c.  Think how many have died of bubonic plague, smallpox, diptheria, tuberculosis, AIDS and so on over the centuries.

Surely each victim who was a believer was entitled to ask, How is this just, God? Where's your omnipotent and protecting arm now I need it through no fault of my own?



lope


God is able but not willing.  He wants us to have the ability to love others and repond to His love.  This is not a very profound thought.


So what do you say to some believer whose children have died of hunger in a drought?  

If Yahweh is just and omnipotent, why does he let the children of the poor die while the children of the rich live?

I've never once heard a satisfactory answer to this. So Epicurus' argument still makes perfect sense to me two millennia on.



mytmouse


That's entire, ultimately silly, argument is based on the shallow notion that in order to be "loving," God would essentially have to be a universal helicopter parent.


Without the slightest doubt if he were benevolent and omnipotent there's a tremendous amount he could do that he doesn't do.

Without the slightest doubt, if he were benevolent and just, then his inaction regarding endless major injustices can only be explained by impotence.


dio


Youall don't seem to get it, God is the soul of creation.


You don't seem to get it.

Yahweh doesn't live up to his billing.

The universe behaves just as it would if he were imaginary.






I don't know that the universe would produce life spontaneously if there were no Creator.  You don't know that either.  I don't have all the answers.   That does not make Epicurus correct.  Unexplained suffering does not mean the only explanation is God is unable to prevent it.  There is too much unkown on your part and mine to be able to say that such and such is the only explanation.  We can logically explain why the suffering caused by man is not stopped by God and it is not about God being unable to stop it.  Therefore Epicurus is wrong.

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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 10:51AM #68
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

May 22, 2012 -- 8:37AM, lope wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 6:44PM, Seefan wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Paladinsf wrote:

  "God is able but not willing.  He wants us to have the ability to love others and repond to His love.  This is not a very profound thought."


Then screw em! If it willing to help get the F* out of the way. Don't go away mad. Just go away. This is not a very profound thought. 



No Paladinsf, not very profound – lol!  You've had better ...


But no matter how we mere mortals 'try' to picture God and His ways, it's my understanding that there's a problem with wanting God to get out of the way, if that’s who you’re referring to! For creation to exist He can't get out of the way!  Not only is the desire for such have to come from a complete lack of spiritual understanding but the physical and spiritual laws which operate the universe operates through His power! As to the statement ‘God is able but not willing’, to my way of thinking, this is wrong and not reality!  It’s taking a choice from someone who, imho, also shows a lack of spiritual understanding and insight into the ways of God.  If the Love of God were to be removed for one second we would all cease to exist and THIS indeed would be an unloving act!  It seems to me that God’s method is all about every last one of us, believers or not, learning about and refining our spirituality while here ...


I think if each ‘one of us’ were to ask if I am part of the solution or part of the problem and stop passing the buck as so many tend to, the ability to acquire divine qualities such as love, no matter where one thinks it comes from, would be much greater and humanity would be moving much faster towards that promise of international peace religion keeps talking about ...  



The ability to love can only exist if one has the ability to chose to not love.  God wants us to have the ability to love.  Therefore He does not remove our ability to not love.  To not love is evil.  That is why God is able to remove evil but not willing to do so. 



You may well be right lope but the way I see it, it isn't a choice not to love but an inability to love greater.  The choice not to love is essentially non-existence in the sense that it is a negative part of us.  In the world of the spirit only the spiritual exists!  The effects of not loving enough is what manifests itself in the physical world.  Hope this makes sense to you! 


Bottom line - The choice not to love only exists because of an underdeveloped ability to love!  We can't wish away our choice not to love only try to develop spiritually to overcome the dilemma  ...



 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 11:27AM #69
lope
Posts: 11,796

May 22, 2012 -- 10:51AM, Seefan wrote:


May 22, 2012 -- 8:37AM, lope wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 6:44PM, Seefan wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Paladinsf wrote:

  "God is able but not willing.  He wants us to have the ability to love others and repond to His love.  This is not a very profound thought."


Then screw em! If it willing to help get the F* out of the way. Don't go away mad. Just go away. This is not a very profound thought. 



No Paladinsf, not very profound – lol!  You've had better ...


But no matter how we mere mortals 'try' to picture God and His ways, it's my understanding that there's a problem with wanting God to get out of the way, if that’s who you’re referring to! For creation to exist He can't get out of the way!  Not only is the desire for such have to come from a complete lack of spiritual understanding but the physical and spiritual laws which operate the universe operates through His power! As to the statement ‘God is able but not willing’, to my way of thinking, this is wrong and not reality!  It’s taking a choice from someone who, imho, also shows a lack of spiritual understanding and insight into the ways of God.  If the Love of God were to be removed for one second we would all cease to exist and THIS indeed would be an unloving act!  It seems to me that God’s method is all about every last one of us, believers or not, learning about and refining our spirituality while here ...


I think if each ‘one of us’ were to ask if I am part of the solution or part of the problem and stop passing the buck as so many tend to, the ability to acquire divine qualities such as love, no matter where one thinks it comes from, would be much greater and humanity would be moving much faster towards that promise of international peace religion keeps talking about ...  



The ability to love can only exist if one has the ability to chose to not love.  God wants us to have the ability to love.  Therefore He does not remove our ability to not love.  To not love is evil.  That is why God is able to remove evil but not willing to do so. 



You may well be right lope but the way I see it, it isn't a choice not to love but an inability to love greater.  The choice not to love is essentially non-existence in the sense that it is a negative part of us.  In the world of the spirit only the spiritual exists!  The effects of not loving enough is what manifests itself in the physical world.  Hope this makes sense to you! 


Bottom line - The choice not to love only exists because of an underdeveloped ability to love!  We can't wish away our choice not to love only try to develop spiritually to overcome the dilemma  ...



 





When Hitler killed all those people, it was a choice--a bad choice.  I don't see how we can avoid it being a choice.  We can chose to be kind to people and care about them or we can chose to hurt them or ignore them.  Both love and evil are choices and if there is no choice there is not love or evil.

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3 years ago  ::  May 22, 2012 - 11:34AM #70
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

May 22, 2012 -- 8:32AM, lope wrote:

May 21, 2012 -- 11:06PM, Paladinsf wrote:


"But no matter how we mere mortals 'try' to picture God and His ways, it's my understanding that there's a problem with wanting God to get out of the way, if that’s who you’re referring to! For creation to exist He can't get out of the way!  Not only is the desire for such have to come from a complete lack of spiritual understanding but the physical and spiritual laws which operate the universe operates through His power! As to the statement ‘God is able but not willing’, to my way of thinking, this is wrong and not reality!  It’s taking a choice from someone who, imho, also shows a lack of spiritual understanding and insight into the ways of God.  If the Love of God were to be removed for one second we would all cease to exist and THIS indeed would be an unloving act!  It seems to me that God’s method is all about every last one of us, believers or not, learning about and refining our spirituality while here ..."




What total nonsense. You have none zero nada zilch evidence that there IS a "spiritual understanding" that differs from mythology.


Take these 2 statements


Unicorns are not real never have been they are the product of human imagination.


Gods are not real never have been they are the product of human imagination.


Provide us with the objective test you apply that establishes statement one is true and statement two is false.


Show your work profound and insightful one.





So you know what is the limit of reality.  I don't think so.


So you can't demonstrate there IS a difference between unicorns and god(s).


Well don't feel bad. In about 6K yrs of trying no believer ever has. So you are just another in a  long of failures.


The real question is WHY do you believe this crap anyway?

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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