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Switch to Forum Live View Should we judge where we are on the Christian journey?
2 years ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 9:04AM #21
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,278

May 23, 2012 -- 6:43PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 23, 2012 -- 6:22PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Thanks, that's quite superb.


sdp




You're welcome, d, and thank you.  (But I'm sure you'll be back on this in 2013, if not sooner... Wink)




What you don't appreciate is that when I talk to, for example, Blu, about heaven, it's precisely parallel to talking to you (or MdS) about mystical experience, and, what constitutes the pathway there-to. I look forward to the day when you cease to disparage Christian mysticism. "Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent". Wittgenstein (who, very few understand, was a Christian mystic, as well as being recognized as the greatest philosopher of the first half of the 20th century).


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 10:35AM #22
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 24, 2012 -- 9:04AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


What you don't appreciate is that when I talk to, for example, Blu, about heaven, it's precisely parallel to talking to you (or MdS) about mystical experience, and, what constitutes the pathway there-to.



Actually, it's not.  Your "pathway there-to" is entirely void of the Gospel and I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


I look forward to the day when you cease to disparage Christian mysticism. "Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent". Wittgenstein



Yet you feel free to do so.  Funny, that.


(who, very few understand, was a Christian mystic, as well as being recognized as the greatest philosopher of the first half of the 20th century).


sdp




"Greatest" of course, would be subjective opinion and isn't shared by many.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 24, 2012 - 7:52PM #23
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,278

May 24, 2012 -- 10:35AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 24, 2012 -- 9:04AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


What you don't appreciate is that when I talk to, for example, Blu, about heaven, it's precisely parallel to talking to you (or MdS) about mystical experience, and, what constitutes the pathway there-to.



Actually, it's not.  Your "pathway there-to" is entirely void of the Gospel and I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


I look forward to the day when you cease to disparage Christian mysticism. "Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent". Wittgenstein



Yet you feel free to do so.  Funny, that.


(who, very few understand, was a Christian mystic, as well as being recognized as the greatest philosopher of the first half of the 20th century).


sdp




"Greatest" of course, would be subjective opinion and isn't shared by many.




I disparage Christian mysticism?


I just bumped the OP for the thread about what it means to be in the Spirit. There is a plumb-line that reaches up through self, up through our spirit up into God's Spirit. That plumb-line is your attention. I haven't proposed any means except those directly related to working with attention as a pathway to Christian mystical experience. This is the core of the ancient Jesus Prayer, AKA The Prayer of the Heart (going back at least to the 4th century, and I believe going back to Jesus). Today this has been brought back as Centering Prayer.


The fact that the East also knows about the value of one's attention does not negate it as the primary consideration in approaching God through even ordinary prayer, but more particularly as access to God through deeper aspects of our being.


I consider it almost a crime that I had to "journey east" to discover via, particularly Zen meditation, what I've just shared above. I was directed to St. John of the Cross, my first Christian mystic, precisely by fellow travelers to the East, not by any Christian. I consider the monks of the Eastern Orthodox Church, the writers of The Philokalia and the Desert Fathers and Mothers of the 3rd and 4th centuries superior to and unmatched by any Eastern philosophy, however, I do still find value in Zen, Taoism and Dzogchen. I will learn about human physiology and human psychology wherever I can.


sdp  




 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  May 25, 2012 - 11:53AM #24
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 24, 2012 -- 7:52PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I disparage Christian mysticism?



Not your brand, no.  My point was "Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent" applies equally to you, if you're going to apply it to anyone else.


In what are we sanctified, sdp?  "In the truth."


What is the truth?  "Your word is truth."


"Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth."


Behold and be...sanctified...


Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.


Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.


Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.


What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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