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Switch to Forum Live View Attacking Christianity.
2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:30AM #71
amcolph
Posts: 17,174

 


May 15, 2012 -- 8:45PM, Adelphe wrote:


 


The point, I believe, is that Christians will explain a doctrine to, say, non-Christians and yet non-Christians will continue to insist their version of Christian doctrine is correct (therein erecting a straw man.)


 




Not always.  Often there is a subtext, for example: "If you inflict the bonehead literal reading which you apply to Genesis in order to justify YECism on this part of the Bible, here is the doctrine you will get.  I can't help it if it's not the doctrine you want."

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:32AM #72
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,661

May 16, 2012 -- 10:18AM, Paladinsf wrote:

Which is why I continue to insist you guys don't know WHAT you believe.


The only thing you ALL agree on is that whatever it is YOu believe the rest of us ought to beleive it also.


How is it that we believe the rest of you ought to beleive what we believe if we don't even know WHAT we believe to begin with??


... and what exactly is it that YOu believe that the rest of us aught not to believe??


Seek true peace, not upon earth, but in heaven; not in men, nor in other things created, but in God alone. -- The Imitation of Christ by Thomas A Kempis

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:32AM #73
lope
Posts: 10,767

May 16, 2012 -- 10:18AM, Paladinsf wrote:

May 16, 2012 -- 10:04AM, lope wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 8:45PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 5:31PM, F1fan wrote:


Then he should be more accurate in his wording, assuming you are correct.  And who cares what his doctrine is?  If it doesn't reflect reason and what we know is true of reality it doesn't serve the human very well.  Someone can have a doctrine that isn't backed by facts, but it should be in contradiction to facts, don't you think?



The point, I believe, is that Christians will explain a doctrine to, say, non-Christians and yet non-Christians will continue to insist their version of Christian doctrine is correct (therein erecting a straw man.)


Well it is interesting that you made an attempt to clarify 57's post.  Is it that we non-believers are misrepresenting doctrine or that certain Christians are not being clear about what they believe? 



It could be both.


This again illustrates how we can't deal with generalities, but specific people and their specific claims.  Not all Christians agree, and it is impossible to generalize doctrine to Christianity as a whole.




There are some basics that Christians shouldn't get wrong.  Yes, there are self-proclaimed Christians who deny some of the basics, but do know that wouldn't be orthodoxy.  So add them into the "to be blamed" list.






Jesus did not have that much respect for orthrodox.  Neither do I.  Orthodox is good if it is true and bad if it is not.  I suspect one of the area that is most disagreed on is what the basics are.




Which is why I continue to insist you guys don't know WHAT you believe.


The only thing you ALL agree on is that whatever it is YOu believe the rest of us ought to beleive it also.




And you are telling me your tirades are not about wanting us to believe as you do?  I find it amusing when Christians are attacked for disagreement with each other.  Disagreement indiates people thinking for themselves.  The attack would be more legitamate if it were for our agreement on everything--then it would show we are not thinking for outsleves, but simply letting a pope or a preacher do our thinking for us.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:35AM #74
F1fan
Posts: 11,153

May 15, 2012 -- 11:24PM, 57 wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 11:20PM, F1fan wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 11:05PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:

I just find that many — or perhaps most — Christians represent their god as being schizophrenic, leastwise when doing their proselytizing duties. Really, who wants to worship a schizophrenic god?





And I just thought it was an incompetent god.




I see the attacks continue.   Do you really believe your creator is incompetent?   





By listening to Christians, like yourself, describe what you believe the creator/god is, is must be incompetent.  I say that since you insist a global flood happened, and that event was intended to kill off all the bad people.  Yet as we see it didn't work, people are just as bad as before your idea of god's genocide happened.  I would expect a competent god to get perfect results.  The god could have just killed off evil people, or at least not kill children, puppies, and kittens.  The story is repulsive literally, and can only be read as a mataphor.


But we are not dealing with facts.  We are dealing with concepts that have no credibility in reality.  The Bible makes it difficult for Christians to create a consistent and loving god, mainly due to the Old Testament.  Not reading the stories literally is the only way to develop a god that serves the self's own spiritual path for the better.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:39AM #75
lope
Posts: 10,767

May 16, 2012 -- 10:35AM, F1fan wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 11:24PM, 57 wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 11:20PM, F1fan wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 11:05PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:

I just find that many — or perhaps most — Christians represent their god as being schizophrenic, leastwise when doing their proselytizing duties. Really, who wants to worship a schizophrenic god?





And I just thought it was an incompetent god.




I see the attacks continue.   Do you really believe your creator is incompetent?   





By listening to Christians, like yourself, describe what you believe the creator/god is, is must be incompetent.  I say that since you insist a global flood happened, and that event was intended to kill off all the bad people.  Yet as we see it didn't work, people are just as bad as before your idea of god's genocide happened.  I would expect a competent god to get perfect results.  The god could have just killed off evil people, or at least not kill children, puppies, and kittens.  The story is repulsive literally, and can only be read as a mataphor.


But we are not dealing with facts.  We are dealing with concepts that have no credibility in reality.  The Bible makes it difficult for Christians to create a consistent and loving god, mainly due to the Old Testament.  Not reading the stories literally is the only way to develop a god that serves the self's own spiritual path for the better.




I agree and if one looks for the meaning of the stories rather than the literal details, spiritual truths abound in both the OT and the NT.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:47AM #76
F1fan
Posts: 11,153

May 16, 2012 -- 5:48AM, Adelphe wrote:

Any non-Christian arguing Christian doctrine with a Christian is "holding a Christian doctrine."  You really don't see those discussions here?  I don't know what to say other than I could point out 5 of them off of the top of my head right now.



"Holding" a doctrine implies it is accepted and believed true.  We need to distinguish those who believe a doctrine from those who understand what it is, but don't accept it as true.  For example, If I tried to argue that Santa exists, you can know what Santa is conceptually (but that doesn't mean you believe it), and argue that he doesn't exist in reality by writing statements of fact.


Then you can't blame those reading the statements by believers who are not being clear.  As far as misrepresenting doctrine, it isn't the doctrine of any non-believer.  If we get something wrong the believer should point out any error.


They do that--that's rather the point.



Then correct them.


But that creates a problem for you when you insist that Christians are asked to witness.  Why would a god ask people to witness the wrong thing?  How do you account for these Christians who get things wrong, from your perspective?  Shouldn't a god be setting them on the right track?


Sure--and He is.  All Christians are at different points along the "spectrum" of doctrinal, spiritual, and practical maturity.  God can (and does) use all of them, regardless.



Yet we see the same mistakes made by certain posters for at least a decade now.  We see fundamentalists continue to set a national campaign against decent people for rather harsh, literalist interpretation of the Bible.  These interpretations go against the spirit of what Jesus taught, so I wonder why your idea of god isn't more effective in guiding these people.  I would think a powerful god would be able to make an effective impact on believers.  But we see little to no change.  We see as many differences between Christians as ever.  I would be impressed if we saw an evolution of Christianity towards more unity, as that would imply some divine influence bringing humanity to an absolute truth.  We see more division.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:52AM #77
lope
Posts: 10,767

May 16, 2012 -- 10:47AM, F1fan wrote:


May 16, 2012 -- 5:48AM, Adelphe wrote:

Any non-Christian arguing Christian doctrine with a Christian is "holding a Christian doctrine."  You really don't see those discussions here?  I don't know what to say other than I could point out 5 of them off of the top of my head right now.



"Holding" a doctrine implies it is accepted and believed true.  We need to distinguish those who believe a doctrine from those who understand what it is, but don't accept it as true.  For example, If I tried to argue that Santa exists, you can know what Santa is conceptually (but that doesn't mean you believe it), and argue that he doesn't exist in reality by writing statements of fact.


Then you can't blame those reading the statements by believers who are not being clear.  As far as misrepresenting doctrine, it isn't the doctrine of any non-believer.  If we get something wrong the believer should point out any error.


They do that--that's rather the point.



Then correct them.


But that creates a problem for you when you insist that Christians are asked to witness.  Why would a god ask people to witness the wrong thing?  How do you account for these Christians who get things wrong, from your perspective?  Shouldn't a god be setting them on the right track?


Sure--and He is.  All Christians are at different points along the "spectrum" of doctrinal, spiritual, and practical maturity.  God can (and does) use all of them, regardless.



Yet we see the same mistakes made by certain posters for at least a decade now.  We see fundamentalists continue to set a national campaign against decent people for rather harsh, literalist interpretation of the Bible.  These interpretations go against the spirit of what Jesus taught, so I wonder why your idea of god isn't more effective in guiding these people.  I would think a powerful god would be able to make an effective impact on believers.  But we see little to no change.  We see as many differences between Christians as ever.  I would be impressed if we saw an evolution of Christianity towards more unity, as that would imply some divine influence bringing humanity to an absolute truth.  We see more division.





I see a great deal of unity among Christians that does not seem to have been present a hundred years ago and longer.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:11AM #78
Blü
Posts: 24,683

lope


I see a great deal of unity among Christians that does not seem to have been present a hundred years ago and longer.


Mitt sure hopes so.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:12AM #79
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

May 16, 2012 -- 10:32AM, Thomas A Quinas wrote:

May 16, 2012 -- 10:18AM, Paladinsf wrote:

Which is why I continue to insist you guys don't know WHAT you believe.


The only thing you ALL agree on is that whatever it is YOu believe the rest of us ought to beleive it also.


How is it that we believe the rest of you ought to beleive what we believe if we don't even know WHAT we believe to begin with??


... and what exactly is it that YOu believe that the rest of us aught not to believe??



Hey, it is your mythology not mine. I make no attempt to explain it.


I merely observe what you guys actually DO.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:26AM #80
lope
Posts: 10,767

May 16, 2012 -- 11:11AM, Blü wrote:


lope


I see a great deal of unity among Christians that does not seem to have been present a hundred years ago and longer.


Mitt sure hopes so.





Yes he does and there was a time not so long ago in this country that a  catholic could not be elected president.  My grandfather would not vote for a republican or a catholic, so when Kennedy ran, he refused to vote.

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