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Switch to Forum Live View Trinity and Omnipotence
2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 8:33PM #101
Kwinters
Posts: 18,090

May 17, 2012 -- 3:17PM, lope wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 3:02PM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 2:55PM, lope wrote:

Omni Omni is unlimited power. Inability to die would be a limit on the power.


While the inability to die could be semantically described as limiting, it seems silly to describe it that way practically speaking.





Perhaps but practically speaking  Omni Omni would include the power to become a mortal meaning becoming an entity that could suffer physcial death and then be resurrected by the spiritual being that is Omni Omni.




Except we've been told he didn't have a physical resurrection because he never reentered his physical body.


Other resurrected individuals experienced physical resurrections and went on to live out their lives.  That is not what happened to Jesus who, instead mystically appeared to people.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 8:41PM #102
Blü
Posts: 23,928

lope


practically speaking  Omni Omni would include the power to become a mortal meaning becoming an entity that could suffer physcial death and then be resurrected by the spiritual being that is Omni Omni.


On this basis, as with Adelphe's, the being doesn't undergo death.  The body dies, but it's just an old coat that can be thrown away.


That strikes me as unsatisfying. No true death is involved, no cessation of existence. It seems incompatible with the idea that Jesus overcame the fact of death by being (really truly) dead, and then alive.  To put that another way, if no cessation of Jesus' existence was involved, the story would be claiming mankind was redeemed just by a torture session, not by a death.


Our basic question is, which one of the Trinity is omnipotent?  If the answer is, Yahweh, Son and Ghost in committee (which Adelphe has nominated, reserving her right to change it) then -


* If Mark is right, Jesus couldn't have belonged to the Trinity until Yahweh adopted him at baptism.  Thus omnipotence didn't exist till then.


* If Paul is right, and Jesus 'emptied himself' so as to be born on earth, then he emptied himself of his share of the omni powers, so while he was on earth, the committee couldn't meet and omnipotence wasn't available.


* And separately from that, if he really died, ceased to exist, then while he was dead no omnipotence was possible, which forces the conclusion that you can do a resurrection with something less than omnipotence.


* So for the committee theory to work, both Paul and Mark would have to be wrong, and Jesus would have kept his full status while on earth - a proposition which Jesus consistently denies in each of the gospels, but particularly in John.


Problems, problems.

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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 11:36PM #103
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

No Blu, even with Jesus absent the committee still has a quorum and thus can act.

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 12:13AM #104
Blü
Posts: 23,928

Jim


No Blu, even with Jesus absent the committee still has a quorum and thus can act.


But then it'd only be a Binity.


And its essential identity would differ from the identity of the Trinity.


Perhaps Jesus appointed an alternate.  My gut feeling is that a Trinity consisting of Gabriel, Judith and Pope Alexander VI as alternates for Yahweh, Jesus and Ghost respectively, wouldn't quite meet everyone's expectations of the Omnipotent Three. 


Someone should check the by-laws.

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 5:40AM #105
Kwinters
Posts: 18,090

May 18, 2012 -- 12:13AM, Blü wrote:


Jim


No Blu, even with Jesus absent the committee still has a quorum and thus can act.


But then it'd only be a Binity.


And its essential identity would differ from the identity of the Trinity.


Perhaps Jesus appointed an alternate.  My gut feeling is that a Trinity consisting of Gabriel, Judith and Pope Alexander VI as alternates for Yahweh, Jesus and Ghost respectively, wouldn't quite meet everyone's expectations of the Omnipotent Three. 


Someone should check the by-laws.




:)

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 8:58AM #106
jlb32168
Posts: 12,208

May 17, 2012 -- 3:17PM, lope wrote:

May 17, 2012 -- 3:02PM, jlb32168 wrote:

May 17, 2012 -- 2:55PM, lope wrote:

Omni Omni is unlimited power. Inability to die would be a limit on the power.


While the inability to die could be semantically described as limiting, it seems silly to describe it that way practically speaking.


Perhaps but practically speaking Omni Omni would include the power to become a mortal meaning becoming an entity that could suffer physcial death and then be resurrected by the spiritual being that is Omni Omni.


But Christ suffered physical death, just like any human, and went to wherever the souls of  “the dead” go.  He just happened to leave that plane later and took some souls with him.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 11:31AM #107
lope
Posts: 9,665

May 17, 2012 -- 8:33PM, Kwinters wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 3:17PM, lope wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 3:02PM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 2:55PM, lope wrote:

Omni Omni is unlimited power. Inability to die would be a limit on the power.


While the inability to die could be semantically described as limiting, it seems silly to describe it that way practically speaking.





Perhaps but practically speaking  Omni Omni would include the power to become a mortal meaning becoming an entity that could suffer physcial death and then be resurrected by the spiritual being that is Omni Omni.




Except we've been told he didn't have a physical resurrection because he never reentered his physical body.


Other resurrected individuals experienced physical resurrections and went on to live out their lives.  That is not what happened to Jesus who, instead mystically appeared to people.





The Bible seems inconsistent on this.  It indicates Jesus cooked and ate after the resurrection and He invited Thomas to touch him---but He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet been glorifed.  It says He could enter a closed room.   I see the resurrection as physical but not continuing to be physical and of course when He disappeared from them, I believe He became completely non physical---total spiritual existence.  Somc Christians insist He remained physicaly alive and will return physically.  I don't think so.

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 11:39AM #108
lope
Posts: 9,665

May 17, 2012 -- 8:41PM, Blü wrote:


lope


practically speaking  Omni Omni would include the power to become a mortal meaning becoming an entity that could suffer physcial death and then be resurrected by the spiritual being that is Omni Omni.


On this basis, as with Adelphe's, the being doesn't undergo death.  The body dies, but it's just an old coat that can be thrown away.


That strikes me as unsatisfying. No true death is involved, no cessation of existence. It seems incompatible with the idea that Jesus overcame the fact of death by being (really truly) dead, and then alive.  To put that another way, if no cessation of Jesus' existence was involved, the story would be claiming mankind was redeemed just by a torture session, not by a death.


Our basic question is, which one of the Trinity is omnipotent?  If the answer is, Yahweh, Son and Ghost in committee (which Adelphe has nominated, reserving her right to change it) then -


* If Mark is right, Jesus couldn't have belonged to the Trinity until Yahweh adopted him at baptism.  Thus omnipotence didn't exist till then.


* If Paul is right, and Jesus 'emptied himself' so as to be born on earth, then he emptied himself of his share of the omni powers, so while he was on earth, the committee couldn't meet and omnipotence wasn't available.


* And separately from that, if he really died, ceased to exist, then while he was dead no omnipotence was possible, which forces the conclusion that you can do a resurrection with something less than omnipotence.


* So for the committee theory to work, both Paul and Mark would have to be wrong, and Jesus would have kept his full status while on earth - a proposition which Jesus consistently denies in each of the gospels, but particularly in John.


Problems, problems.





There is physical life and death and spiritual life and death.  Both deaths are true deaths.  I believe Jesus like all who are obediant to the law of love will continue to exist spiritually after they die physically.  I am not that interested in when Jesus became omnipotent or if and I am not worried about understand all the details about the relationship between Jesus and God.

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 6:26PM #109
Blü
Posts: 23,928

lope


I am not that interested in when Jesus became omnipotent or if


Omnipotence and the Trinity - their relationship is the topic of this thread


So your comment is rather a conversation-stopper.

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 7:32PM #110
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

May 18, 2012 -- 6:26PM, Blü wrote:


lope


I am not that interested in when Jesus became omnipotent or if


Omnipotence and the Trinity - their relationship is the topic of this thread


So your comment is rather a conversation-stopper.




not really, Jesus was a human vessel the finite can not completely contain the infinite


the Word , the Son is the third person of Trinity


a human by definition is not omni...



and lets presume for a minute that Jesus was Omni-he lost that when he submitted His rank to the Father

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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