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2 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 3:53PM #1
Son_of_Thunder
Posts: 326

"Then [YHWH] said to Moses:'Make for yourself a fiery snake and place it upon a signal pole. And it must occur that when anyone has been bitten, he then has to look at it and so must keep alive.'"-Numbers 21:8 NWT [], italics,mine

SOT: I encourage the bible students to read the entire context of the text in question. Please just read the whole 21st chapter. Please meditate on the words that the author chose to use in his narration. This tradition has implications that will be fundamental to how you view your wind god, YHWH.



FDS: YHWH has four main attributes. Justice, Power, Wisdom, and Love.



SOT:

1. Wisdom.

A. Compare 2 Kings 18:4- YHWH is said to have the foresight to make wise choices that produce positive outcomes. But in 2 Kings, we find evidence of a lasting black mark on YHWH's record. Hezekiah, in an effort to promote pure worship in Judea, crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made. Why?

"...for down to those days the sons of Israel had continually been making sacrificial smoke to it, and it used to be called the copper serpent idol."-2 Kings 18:4b NWT

SOT: God's wisdom is matchless according to christians. YHWH has no advisors. He takes no ones advice.

YHWH's odd decision to demand a copper idol to be made and then "looked at", is a direct cause of the spiritual problems Hezekiah had to deal with hundreds of years later.

-SOT





  

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2 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 4:38PM #2
Son_of_Thunder
Posts: 326

B. Compare Psalms 103:14. The Bible says that YHWH has intimate knowledge of the human psyche. He knows us inside and out. Down to the last geno-code. I don't believed he exercised that intimate knowlege in his decision to send deadly snakes to discipline his fledging nation. 


In Numbers 21, YHWH sends snakes to kill his own people. Imagine the scene. Men. Women. Children. All of them were suddenly under large amounts of stress, to say the least. Medical professionals would use words like "shock", or "Post-traumatic stress" in their diagnosis of the survivors.


"[YHWH] well knows the formation of us[the human family]..."- Psalms 103:14a NWT


SOT: A wise God would of known that the survivors would be vulnerable after an experience like a snake attack. Mentally and emotional unstable even.


What does YWH do?


"[YHWH] tells Moses to make an idol"-Numbers 21


SOT: This is 1500 BCE friends. Making an idol of this size wasn't an easy task. The metal workers working around the clock still would needed atleast 24 hours to form the snake.


"For as the heavens are higher than the earth. So my[YHWH's] ways are higher than your[humans] ways and my thoughts than your thoughts"-Isaiah 55:9 NWT []-mine


SOT: Tell me friends... is Isaiah 100% accurate? 

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2 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 5:46PM #3
Kemmer
Posts: 16,343

...  I don't believed he exercised that intimate knowlege in his decision to send deadly snakes to discipline his fledging nation.



I think He was just making an asp of himself.  Surprised

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2 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 11:11PM #4
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,552

May 13, 2012 -- 5:46PM, Kemmer wrote:


...  I don't believed he exercised that intimate knowlege in his decision to send deadly snakes to discipline his fledging nation.



I think He was just making an asp of himself.  Surprised




Serpentine reasoning, Kemmer. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 6:40PM #5
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150
It's just a genius solution I tell you.
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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 9:09AM #6
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

This whole scenario just shows why a morality based on the Bible has absolutely no merit whatsoever. 


It's only wrong unless or until God tells you it's okay...   

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2 years ago  ::  May 19, 2012 - 10:38AM #7
Son_of_Thunder
Posts: 326

May 16, 2012 -- 9:09AM, Truthwillset wrote:


This whole scenario just shows why a morality based on the Bible has absolutely no merit whatsoever. 


It's only wrong unless or until God tells you it's okay...   




So true. Have you noticed that not a single christian apologist has tried to defend their "Holy" Sovereign Lord? This account in Numbers 21 is simply damning. No room for any academic backflips. No space for some nonsensical verbiage. It's plain and simple. God is culpable in a mortal sin. No matter how you slice it. No christian can defend this chapter.


-SOT



 

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2 years ago  ::  May 19, 2012 - 11:17AM #8
Son_of_Thunder
Posts: 326

II. Justice


A. Compare Exodus 20:4, 5- Violation of the Mosaic Law Code


"You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is...on the earth...You must not bow down to them..."- NWT


SOT: Jehovah's witnesses teach the YHWH is all powerful, but not omnipotent. There are things that God just can't do. He can't lie(hebrews 6:18) for example.


He can't sin.....?


Definition of sin


sin- "to miss the mark"


SOT-I believe that God's reckless actions in Numbers 21 meets that definition!


 


B. Compare Exodus 34:14I am Jealous


"For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because [YHWH], whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God... you must not make molten idols gods for yourself."- Exodus 34:14-16 NWT []-mine


SOT: YHWH wants exclusive devotion from his people. Only he is deserving of such adoration.


Q:If exclusive devotion is the ultimate goal, why have the idol made?


 


-SOT

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2 years ago  ::  May 19, 2012 - 11:30AM #9
Newtonian
Posts: 11,973

May 19, 2012 -- 10:38AM, Son_of_Thunder wrote:


May 16, 2012 -- 9:09AM, Truthwillset wrote:


This whole scenario just shows why a morality based on the Bible has absolutely no merit whatsoever. 


It's only wrong unless or until God tells you it's okay...   




So true. Have you noticed that not a single christian apologist has tried to defend their "Holy" Sovereign Lord? This account in Numbers 21 is simply damning. No room for any academic backflips. No space for some nonsensical verbiage. It's plain and simple. God is culpable in a mortal sin. No matter how you slice it. No christian can defend this chapter.


-SOT



 




SOT - Well - I am not a single Christian - as I am married.


But I will respond - note I have been busy and had not read this thread - I have answered your questions on other threads.


First - from our literature:


"It is well for every Christian to remember what took place in connection with the figure of the copper serpent made by Moses. During the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness, God commanded Moses, who had led Israel out of Egypt, to make the figure of a copper serpent, which was a symbol and had prophetic significance, but it was not for religious worship. (Num. 21:4-9; John 3:14, 15) Thus the copper-serpent image was not adored or used for worship in Moses’ day. Though that image was made under proper circumstances, even at the command of God, yet, finally, it had to be destroyed. How so? Because centuries after Moses’ day the Israelites turned that same image of the copper serpent into an object of religious devotion, even burning incense to it. (2 Ki. 18:4) So when King Hezekiah purged the land of Judah of religious images, he had the copper serpent made by Moses crushed into pieces and utterly destroyed.


That destruction of religious images had God’s blessing, since the true God wants to be worshiped without images or not through images, as Jesus Christ himself stated: “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”—John 4:24; 2 Ki. 18:1-7." - "The Watchtower," 7/1/64, p. 393.


An important cross reference:


(John 3:13-16) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life. 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.


Apparently you missed the prophetic significance of this - I'll give you a hint:


Was the copper serpent lifted up on a cross or stake?


Another hint: see Galatians 3:13. 


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 19, 2012 - 12:32PM #10
Son_of_Thunder
Posts: 326

Newt: Well - I am not a single Christian - as I am married.


SOT: Nice to hear from you again Newt. I hope you are doing well. You are a brave Jw!


Society:to make the figure of a copper serpent, which was a symbol and had prophetic significance, but it was not for religious worship


SOT: I'm sorry, but just because you say something doesn't make it so FDS. YHWH commanded people in emotional and mentally vulnerable states to "look at" the copper idol.


Please pick up your literature! My Book of Bible Stories. This scene in Numbers 21 is pictured in the publication. In it, has Moses posting the idol in a prominent place up in the air. Look at the bite victims, they are in position so prostration.


"not a religious symbol"?


Numbers 21 was a test of faith. Where is you looked at the idol "in faith", your life would be saved.


It is a religious symbol!!!


Society: Because centuries after Moses’ day the Israelites turned that same image of the copper serpent into an object of religious devotion, even burning incense to it.


SOT: This is my point. YHWH should of known!


1. He knew that Israel had past problem with idolatry.


2. He knew that the snake was a symbol of false gods.


3. He knew that the idol could of been misused for it's "intended purpose".


FDS: Power, Justice, Wisdom, Love


SOT: Foresight is wisdom. If God had any foresight, this could of been prevented.


 


YES, Israel did drink the water.


But YHWH lead them to watering hole and dunked their head in!


This makes YHWH culpable in idolatry, a mortal sin....


-SOT

Moderated by nanalulu222 on May 19, 2012 - 06:10PM
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