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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:40PM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 22,595
Did you know the original version of Luke's gospel did not include that bit about Jesus suffering?  That was a later addition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ\'s_agony_at...


Christ's agony at Gethsemane is a passage in the Gospel of Luke (22:43–44), describing a prayer of Jesus, after which he receives strength from an angel, on the Mount of Olives prior to his betrayal and arrest. It is one of several passages which appear in the New Testament, but is absent in many of the earlier manuscripts.


The situation of Jesus, prior to the completion of his ministry, begging weakness to God to perform the difficult task has been compared to Exodus 3, wherein the prophet Moses speaks to God and pleads weakness when told to confront Pharaoh.[1]


The authenticity of the passage has been disputed by scholars since the second half of the 19th century. The verses are placed in double brackets in modern editions of the Greek text, and in a footnote in the RSV.


 
Bruce M. Metzger (2005): "These verses are absent from some of the oldest and best witnesses, including the majority of the Alexandrian manuscripts.

It is striking to note that the earliest witnesses attesting the verses are three Church fathers – Justin, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus – each of whom uses the verses in order to counter Christological views that maintained that Jesus was not a full human who experienced the full range of human sufferings. It may well be that the verses were added to the text for just this reason, in opposition to those who held to a docetic Christology".

Bruce M. Metzger
A Textual Commentary on the New TestamentDeutsche BibelgesellschaftUnited Bible Societies, Stuttgart 1994, p. 151
 
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:49PM #2
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

or it may have been a separate Lucan tradition that got merged with the final product at a later date



I respect Dr. Metzger, but he's ignoring the possibility that passion stories could have had a life of their own.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:52PM #3
Kwinters
Posts: 22,595

May 8, 2012 -- 5:49PM, davelaw40 wrote:


or it may have been a separate Lucan tradition that got merged with the final product at a later date



I respect Dr. Metzger, but he's ignoring the possibility that passion stories could have had a life of their own.




Separate Lucan tradition?  How does that work?  Two authors?  Got evidence for a seperate tradition?


Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 6:02PM #4
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

May 8, 2012 -- 5:52PM, Kwinters wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 5:49PM, davelaw40 wrote:


or it may have been a separate Lucan tradition that got merged with the final product at a later date



I respect Dr. Metzger, but he's ignoring the possibility that passion stories could have had a life of their own.




Separate Lucan tradition?  How does that work?  Two authors?  Got evidence for a seperate tradition?





1800 years of passion traditions


maybe that has an origin


Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 6:09PM #5
dio
Posts: 5,139

 


I'm not surprised Luke's Jesus is borderline Docetism, so sublime he doesn’t suffer.


In Mark's account Jesus throws himself on the ground to pray. In Luke's angels came to comfort and strengthen him. Luke's Jesus is much more God than man.

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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 6:54PM #6
Ed.W
Posts: 9,444

I believe that a balanced blend of Tradition and Scripture is a good thing for the Christian.  Kristi seems to advocate literalism and would shun Tradition.


These verses are most likely not in the original (they almost deserve a parentheses in their own right).  It obviously reads like it was inserted by a nun.  But they remain for the sake of Tradition.


I should note that my primary Bible, the Catholic NAB, the verses are in brackets with a full explanation in a footnote.


‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 8:11PM #7
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

May 8, 2012 -- 6:54PM, Ed.W wrote:

I believe that a balanced blend of Tradition and Scripture is a good thing for the Christian.  Kristi seems to advocate literalism and would shun Tradition.


These verses are most likely not in the original (they almost deserve a parentheses in their own right).  It obviously reads like it was inserted by a nun.  But they remain for the sake of Tradition.


I should note that my primary Bible, the Catholic NAB, the verses are in brackets with a full explanation in a footnote.



So it really means whatever TPB say it means.Wink

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 8:57PM #8
Ed.W
Posts: 9,444

May 8, 2012 -- 8:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 6:54PM, Ed.W wrote:


I believe that a balanced blend of Tradition and Scripture is a good thing for the Christian.  Kristi seems to advocate literalism and would shun Tradition.


These verses are most likely not in the original (they almost deserve a parentheses in their own right).  It obviously reads like it was inserted by a nun.  But they remain for the sake of Tradition.


I should note that my primary Bible, the Catholic NAB, the verses are in brackets with a full explanation in a footnote.





So it really means whatever TPB say it means.




That is correct.

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 9:21PM #9
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

May 8, 2012 -- 8:57PM, Ed.W wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 8:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 6:54PM, Ed.W wrote:


I believe that a balanced blend of Tradition and Scripture is a good thing for the Christian.  Kristi seems to advocate literalism and would shun Tradition.


These verses are most likely not in the original (they almost deserve a parentheses in their own right).  It obviously reads like it was inserted by a nun.  But they remain for the sake of Tradition.


I should note that my primary Bible, the Catholic NAB, the verses are in brackets with a full explanation in a footnote.





So it really means whatever TPB say it means.




That is correct.


How convenient for you, or them.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 9:48AM #10
jlb32168
Posts: 13,622

By what criteria are manuscripts determined to be "the best"?  Is it because they're older?  That seems to say that "older is better", which seems to be a presupposition.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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