May 8, 2012 -- 5:34PM, davelaw40 wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:27PM, Kwinters wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:24PM, davelaw40 wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:15PM, Kwinters wrote:

A spiritual body is not a resurrection.

Did Laz get a spiritual body? Or the girl? Or the people the apostles are said to have raised from the dead?

No, they - according to the texts - were resurrected.

Appearances are not resurrections. 

your own proof text says otherwise:

 According to the Gospel of Matthew, after Jesus's resurrection, many of the dead saints came out of their tombs and entered Jerusalem, where they appeared to many.

They were dead and then they were not.  Does it say they popped in and out of existence and vanished?

come now-the text uses your word-appeared

Don't go Wobbly on me, George.

True.  But the text does not say they were resurrected.

May 8, 2012 -- 5:15PM, Kwinters wrote:

[a] A spiritual body is not a resurrection.

[b] Did Laz [must be Kwinters' nickname for Lazarus ...] get a spiritual body? Or the girl? Or the people the apostles are said to have raised from the dead?

No, they - according to the texts - were resurrected.

[c] Appearances are not resurrections.

[a] Thus spake Kwinters, pretending to ignore that the letter and even the chapter where Paul speaks of the resurrection body as "spiritual body" is that very same 1 Corinthians 15 from which she drew her own prooftext at the OP ...

[b] None of those people, indeed, got a "spiritual body", for the simple reason that none of them was resurrected in a new, glorious, spiritual body: they were revived, resuscitated, raised in the old, mortal body in which they died.

Jesus has promised the resurrection to all who believe in him, but so far he is the only one who, as the "firstfuits", has already enjoyed the resurrection. (1 Cor 15:20)

[c] Indeed appearances are not (necessarily) resurrections ...

... and, once again, Jesus' resurrection is, so far, a "hapax", if you know what the word  means ...

MdS

Jesus when resurrected can -

* speak (throughout), and
* be touched (Matt 28:9), and
* take, hold, and give physical objects (Luke 24:30, John 21:13), and
* eat (Luke 24:43), and
* breathe (John 20:22),

and he expressly denies that he’s a ghost (Luke 24:39).  

In these respects his form and actions are material, those of a body.

Nonetheless, Jesus when resurrected can also -

* appear at will, including inside locked rooms (Mark 16:9, 16:12, 16:14, Luke 24:36, John 20:19, 20:26 and perhaps John 21:1) and
* disappear (Luke 24:31) and
* choose not to be recognized until the psychological moment (Luke 24:16 & 31, John 20:14 & 16-18, John 21:4 & 12)

In these respects, his form and actions are immaterial, those of a ghost.

Then we find he was carried up to heaven (Mark 16:19, Luke 24:51. Acts 1:9).  I don't think a ghost or a spirit would need to be carried up to heaven.  Heaven must likewise be a real place if Elijah can get there in a chariot, after all.

So the bible presents us with a muddle of Jewish ideas (resurrected body) and Greek ideas (disembodied soul, ghost).

I can think of only one arguable example of a ghost or spirit in the OT, when the Endor lady raises Samuel for a chat with Saul.  The chat with Moses and Elijah is either a mix of that idea with Greek elaborations, or wholly Greek in derivation.

I'm thinking Christianity started with all these people telling each other about their appearances. Maybe thats why there are so many gospels and apocrapha.

Did you ever read the gospel of Philip, they are gathered praying and Philip starts channeling Jesus. I specially like the part where Jesus kisses Mary Magdaline, on the lips.

The gospel of Peter is a different revelation. Each Gospel is a revelation.

57

There will be no resurrection until the rapture of the Church.

Why do you think that?