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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 1:06PM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936
1 Cor 15:5-8 
...and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also...

Matt 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."


If Moses and Elijah appeared to the disciples, does that mean God resurrected them from the dead too?

How is it possible to differentiate between resurrection and appearance? 
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 1:49PM #2
tfvespasianus
Posts: 2,060
The OP does raise several interesting questions. I'll think on them.

 

A couple of random thoughts though. First, Elijah's death is not explicitly recorded and this fact does have a tradition associated with it (i.e. he was assumed into Heaven alive). Also, I've always thought it odd, even putting aside 'suspension of disbelief', that Peter knew who these people were. It doesn't seem like it would be patently obvious ala Elvis and I doubt they were wearing 'Hello, My Name is' badges.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 1:59PM #3
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

May 8, 2012 -- 1:49PM, tfvespasianus wrote:


The OP does raise several interesting questions. I'll think on them.

 

A couple of random thoughts though. First, Elijah's death is not explicitly recorded and this fact does have a tradition associated with it (i.e. he was assumed into Heaven alive). Also, I've always thought it odd, even putting aside 'suspension of disbelief', that Peter knew who these people were. It doesn't seem like it would be patently obvious ala Elvis and I doubt they were wearing 'Hello, My Name is' badges.



Who knows, perhaps the details about Moses' sideburns and flare-bottomed jumpsuits were lost to history :)

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:03PM #4
tfvespasianus
Posts: 2,060

May 8, 2012 -- 1:59PM, Kwinters wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 1:49PM, tfvespasianus wrote:


The OP does raise several interesting questions. I'll think on them.

 

A couple of random thoughts though. First, Elijah's death is not explicitly recorded and this fact does have a tradition associated with it (i.e. he was assumed into Heaven alive). Also, I've always thought it odd, even putting aside 'suspension of disbelief', that Peter knew who these people were. It doesn't seem like it would be patently obvious ala Elvis and I doubt they were wearing 'Hello, My Name is' badges.



Who knows, perhaps the details about Moses' sideburns and flare-bottomed jumpsuits were lost to history :)




That could very well be. Or perhaps Jesus had that annoying tic that I've noticed people in sales often posses. That being saying the personal name of the individual they are addressing in conversation repeatedly. (i.e. you know Moe, I was thinking that, Moe, you should really... Don't you agree Moe? Ha! That's funny, Moe.)



Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:11PM #5
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

May 8, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Kwinters wrote:

1 Cor 15:5-8 
...and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also...

Matt 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

If Moses and Elijah appeared to the disciples, does that mean God resurrected them from the dead too?

How is it possible to differentiate between resurrection and appearance? 


The verbal form used both in 1 Cor 15:5-8 and in Matt 17:3 is indeed the same also in Greek: ωφθη, Aorist Passive Indicative, 3rd Singular from ὁράω (horaō - G3708), used in the sense 5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared.


So, from this verbal form, there is no way to discriminate from the appearances of the resurrected Jesus and the "appearances" of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration.


It is quite likely that Paul used this verb so as to minimize the difference between the appearances of the resurrected Jesus to the Twelve and the "appearance" to Paul himself on the way to Damascus, which Acts describes as "a light from heaven" that "flashed around him", followed by a "voice" (Acts 9:3-4).


But elsewhere in the Gospels we find different words used to describe the encounter between the Resurrected Jesus and the Twelve: see Matt 28:9, Luke 24:36-43, John 20:19-29.


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:22PM #6
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

May 8, 2012 -- 2:11PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


But elsewhere in the Gospels we find different words used to describe the encounter between the Resurrected Jesus and the Twelve: see Matt 28:9, Luke 24:36-43, John 20:19-29.


MdS




Of course we do - the language changes and Jesus' manifestations become curiously more corporeal as time goes by.


According to Paul he appeared, in Matthew he as touchable feet, he can vanish out of sight, In Luke he can also appear, but gets hungry too, and by John he is vanishing and reappearing, but is also able to cook breakfast!


Considering the theological need to establish a physical resurrection as the movement got bigger and more push back it is rather unsurprising that the tales grew taller and taller.



However, this does not address the problem of the appearances of Moses and Elijah vs the appearances of Jesus.


After all, someone who is resurrected does not vanish in and out of sight.  But appearances do.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:23PM #7
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

May 8, 2012 -- 2:22PM, Kwinters wrote:


After all, someone who is resurrected does not vanish in and out of sight.  But appearances do.




Experienced many resurrections, have you? :)

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:25PM #8
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

May 8, 2012 -- 2:23PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 2:22PM, Kwinters wrote:


After all, someone who is resurrected does not vanish in and out of sight.  But appearances do.




Experienced many resurrections, have you? :)




There are many instances of people being brought back from the dead, and there are stories of it in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures (and many outside as well).*


None of them resulted in people being able to appear and disappear at will.



*(From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection)


There are three explicit examples in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) of people being resurrected from the dead:

  • The prophet Elijah prays and God raises a young boy from death (1 Kings 17:17-24)
  • Elisha raises the son of the Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4:32-37); this was the very same child whose birth he previously foretold (2 Kings 4:8-16)
  • A dead man's body that was thrown into the dead Elisha's tomb is resurrected when the body touches Elisha's bones (2 Kings 13:21)

 Jesus is said to have raised several persons from death. These resurrections included the daughter of Jairus shortly after death, a young man in the midst of his own funeral procession, and Lazarus, who had been buried for four days. According to the Gospel of Matthew, after Jesus's resurrection, many of the dead saints came out of their tombs and entered Jerusalem, where they appeared to many.


Similar resurrections are credited to Christian apostles and saints. Peter allegedly raised a woman named Dorcas (called Tabitha), and Paul revived a man named Eutychus who had fallen asleep and fell from a window to his death, according to the book of Acts


Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:26PM #9
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

No to be argumentative, but isn't a resurrection a solid physical manifestation, as in the entire physical body comes back to life? Then it would not simply vanish into thin air, would it?


Where as an appearance would be more like a ghost sighting yes?



Sincerely, not being snarky.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:29PM #10
Kwinters
Posts: 21,936

May 8, 2012 -- 2:26PM, mainecaptain wrote:


No to be argumentative, but isn't a resurrection a solid physical manifestation, as in the entire physical body comes back to life? Then it would not simply vanish into thin air, would it?


Where as an appearance would be more like a ghost sighting yes?


Sincerely, not being snarky.





Agreed.  If a person was truly raised from the dead they would be alive in the usual way.  If they died and their family and friends believed they saw them that would be an appearance.  

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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