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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:20PM #21
Kwinters
Posts: 22,167

May 8, 2012 -- 5:10PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 3:37PM, Kwinters wrote:

No, what is happening here is that there are many accounts that claim resurrection where a normal person dies and is brought back to life.



Right, and the point is that Jesus's resurrection is supposed to be different.




It was so different it isn't a resurrection at all.  It is appearances


If Jesus wasn't up and in the body that was dead then he wasn't brought back to life. If he could appear and disappear, brought back to life.


A spiritual body is not a resurrection. In fact, I will put it to you that no one who advocates a spiritual body has any idea what they are talking about.  It is a made up term that sounds good but has no meaning when you dig deeper.


Paul, our earliest source describes appearances.  All other resurrections were dead people brought back to life.


If you want to claim that all appearances are resurrections then you'll have to account for the resurrection of Moses and the Virgin Mary, and every saint that has ever made an appearance to a believer.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:22PM #22
Kwinters
Posts: 22,167

Reminder of the OP question


May 8, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Kwinters wrote:

 

How is it possible to differentiate between resurrection and appearance? 






Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:24PM #23
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

May 8, 2012 -- 5:15PM, Kwinters wrote:


A spiritual body is not a resurrection.


Did Laz get a spiritual body? Or the girl? Or the people the apostles are said to have raised from the dead?


No, they - according to the texts - were resurrected.


Appearances are not resurrections. 













your own proof text says otherwise:



 According to the Gospel of Matthew, after Jesus's resurrection, many of the dead saints came out of their tombs and entered Jerusalem, where they appeared to many.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:26PM #24
Kwinters
Posts: 22,167

May 8, 2012 -- 5:10PM, nieciedo wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 3:37PM, Kwinters wrote:

No, what is happening here is that there are many accounts that claim resurrection where a normal person dies and is brought back to life.



Right, and the point is that Jesus's resurrection is supposed to be different.


You are trying to shoehorn in the appearances of Jesus into the defintion of resurrection. It doesn't fit.



No, that is what you are doing.


There is no new definition of resurrection.  There is only one.



How do you know this?


And what do you make of these verses?


Matthew 22:30/Mark 12:25 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."


Luke 20:36 "for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are C)">sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."


Paul goes on at length about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:




Speculation based on who knows what.  All the resurrections in the Bible are dead people who become living people.


Jesus makes appearances in the stories.  He was not resurrected.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:27PM #25
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

May 8, 2012 -- 2:29PM, Kwinters wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 2:26PM, mainecaptain wrote:


No to be argumentative, but isn't a resurrection a solid physical manifestation, as in the entire physical body comes back to life? Then it would not simply vanish into thin air, would it?


Where as an appearance would be more like a ghost sighting yes?


Sincerely, not being snarky.





Agreed.  If a person was truly raised from the dead they would be alive in the usual way.  If they died and their family and friends believed they saw them that would be an appearance.  




Yes, that makes sense, resurrected they would actually be able to live a normal life afterwards.  It would actually be provable, you would have the person, you would have all the evidence you needed.


Not with an appearance.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:27PM #26
Kwinters
Posts: 22,167

May 8, 2012 -- 5:24PM, davelaw40 wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 5:15PM, Kwinters wrote:


A spiritual body is not a resurrection.


Did Laz get a spiritual body? Or the girl? Or the people the apostles are said to have raised from the dead?


No, they - according to the texts - were resurrected.


Appearances are not resurrections. 













your own proof text says otherwise:



 According to the Gospel of Matthew, after Jesus's resurrection, many of the dead saints came out of their tombs and entered Jerusalem, where they appeared to many.




They were dead and then they were not.  Does it say they popped in and out of existence and vanished?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:29PM #27
tfvespasianus
Posts: 2,088

May 8, 2012 -- 5:24PM, davelaw40 wrote:


your own proof text says otherwise:



 According to the Gospel of Matthew, after Jesus's resurrection, many of the dead saints came out of their tombs and entered Jerusalem, where they appeared to many.




Does anyone remember "New Shimmer is dessert topping and a floor wax!"?

Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:29PM #28
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Jesus' "appearances" include walking , talking, eating and cooking

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:31PM #29
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

May 8, 2012 -- 5:29PM, tfvespasianus wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 5:24PM, davelaw40 wrote:


your own proof text says otherwise:



 According to the Gospel of Matthew, after Jesus's resurrection, many of the dead saints came out of their tombs and entered Jerusalem, where they appeared to many.




Does anyone remember "New Shimmer is dessert topping and a floor wax!"?




SNL 1976? I was 14.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 5:34PM #30
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

May 8, 2012 -- 5:27PM, Kwinters wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 5:24PM, davelaw40 wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 5:15PM, Kwinters wrote:


A spiritual body is not a resurrection.


Did Laz get a spiritual body? Or the girl? Or the people the apostles are said to have raised from the dead?


No, they - according to the texts - were resurrected.


Appearances are not resurrections. 













your own proof text says otherwise:



 According to the Gospel of Matthew, after Jesus's resurrection, many of the dead saints came out of their tombs and entered Jerusalem, where they appeared to many.




They were dead and then they were not.  Does it say they popped in and out of existence and vanished?




come now-the text uses your word-appeared


Don't go Wobbly on me, George.

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