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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 10:01AM #1
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Are the catholic laity ever going to wake up and confront the self serving hierarchy?

If every intelligent catholic withheld contributions on Sunday you would see action pretty soon. The dumb sheep will continue to be led by the evil clergy so we can't expect anything from them.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-pass...

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 10:30AM #2
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

May 7, 2012 -- 10:01AM, Marcion wrote:


Are the catholic laity ever going to wake up and confront the self serving hierarchy?

If every intelligent catholic withheld contributions on Sunday you would see action pretty soon. The dumb sheep will continue to be led by the evil clergy so we can't expect anything from them.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-pass...




Zee plot zickens.


From the article:


Notwithstanding these black marks on an otherwise sterling reputation, Mother Teresa — who died in 1997 and is now on the fast track to a formal proclamation of sainthood by the Vatican — was never known to have been touched by the scandal that would rock the Roman Catholic Church in the decade after her death: the systematic protection of child-molesting priests by church officials.


Yet documents obtained by SF Weekly suggest that Mother Teresa knew one of her favorite priests was removed from ministry for sexually abusing a Bay Area boy in 1993, and that she nevertheless urged his bosses to return him to work as soon as possible. The priest resumed active ministry, as well as his predatory habits. Eight additional complaints were lodged against him in the coming years by various families, leading to his eventual arrest on sex-abuse charges in 2005.


The priest was Donald McGuire, a former Jesuit who has been convicted of molesting boys in federal and state courts and is serving a 25-year federal prison sentence. McGuire, now 81 years old, taught at the University of San Francisco in the late 1970s, and held frequent spiritual retreats for families in San Francisco and Walnut Creek throughout the 1980s and 1990s. He also ministered extensively to the Missionaries of Charity during that time.

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 11:07AM #3
Buggsy
Posts: 4,732

Mother Teresa - one of the biggest frauds of the 20th century

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 11:15AM #4
mokantx
Posts: 3,818

May 7, 2012 -- 10:01AM, Marcion wrote:


Are the catholic laity ever going to wake up and confront the self serving hierarchy?

If every intelligent catholic withheld contributions on Sunday you would see action pretty soon. The dumb sheep will continue to be led by the evil clergy so we can't expect anything from them.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-pass...




Marcion


Sadly, I think the answer to your question is that it's not likely that the confrontation will take place. The implications of doing so would be pretty jarring to most Catholics. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 11:22AM #5
Buggsy
Posts: 4,732

May 7, 2012 -- 11:15AM, mokantx wrote:


The implications of doing so would be pretty jarring to most Catholics. 




Mo


When Enron, Worldcom and Arthur Andersen all tanked within a few years of each other, the implications to employees and retirees of lost pensions was pretty jarring. 


Do you think confronting the bureaucracy with silent revolt would have serious spiritual consequences to the laity?  What could the suits do?

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 12:26PM #6
mokantx
Posts: 3,818

May 7, 2012 -- 11:22AM, Buggsy wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 11:15AM, mokantx wrote:


The implications of doing so would be pretty jarring to most Catholics. 




Mo


When Enron, Worldcom and Arthur Andersen all tanked within a few years of each other, the implications to employees and retirees of lost pensions was pretty jarring. 


Do you think confronting the bureaucracy with silent revolt would have serious spiritual consequences to the laity?  What could the suits do?




Buggsy


I think we've already seen several examples of actions on the part of the laity that likely sent shivers up the spines of the PTBs within the church.  Most certainly, were the laity to close their pocketbooks, that would send a message.  The problem with that one, is that for a lot of the laity, their issues are not with their local parish, or their local parish priest.  So many if not most of those folks are not likely to close their pocketbooks, because they fear they'd just be hurting that piece of the church that they still love.


I really LOVED the action by that parish recently where at a first communion, absolutely NOBODY from the pews went up to communion, other than the first communicants.  I think THAT one likely hit pretty hard at that local priest.  So as i see it, i think a very strong message could be sent were catholics to begin to take actions like that.  Imagine, for example, concerted efforts where similar, non destructive messages could be sent.  If a bishop visits a parish, and nobody shows up for his mass... Or if nobody will get in his line to receive communion from the guy...  For this to work however, I think it would need several things:


1: the bishop would need to know that this was, in fact, a concerted action on the part of the people of that parish.  A simple note handed to him at the end of the mass should do nicely.


2: the action would need to be repeated, not just more than once in that diocese, but in multiple dioceses across the country.


3: I'm sure there are other things that could be done as well.  Personally, I kinda like these more passive approaches: ones that make it clear to a specific bishop, that it's aimed at him, and WHY it's aimed at him.   So, a simple note that says "the church gives us no means to dialog on matters that are important to us, so this is our way of telling you that we need to talk" might be enough to get things started.  I suspect many of these bishops get a bit of a kick out of being able to parade their eccleisal "power," in the forms of the vestments and other symbols of that power, out among the locals.  For generations, those were always considered "big days" at the local parish.  But if the local parishes begin to "flip" that, to where the bishop begins to realize that his "events" are being used to send HIM a message, heck, some of these guys heads might explode!



To be sure, there would be "counter protests" wherein the  conservatives might try to go out of their ways to attend in lieu of those who chose to skip it.  But even if they do go, for a bishop's visit, to have only 10% of the spaces in the pews occupied, sooner or later I think they'd get the message...



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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 1:42PM #7
Buggsy
Posts: 4,732

Mo


2017 is only 5 years away.  The 500th anniversay seems like a fitting time

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 6:49PM #8
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

May 7, 2012 -- 11:15AM, mokantx wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 10:01AM, Marcion wrote:


Are the catholic laity ever going to wake up and confront the self serving hierarchy?

If every intelligent catholic withheld contributions on Sunday you would see action pretty soon. The dumb sheep will continue to be led by the evil clergy so we can't expect anything from them.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-pass...




Marcion


Sadly, I think the answer to your question is that it's not likely that the confrontation will take place. The implications of doing so would be pretty jarring to most Catholics. 




The real problem is that the sheep far outnumber intelligent catholics. It is just the nature of priest-based religions; an evil that goes back to ancient times. The Egyptian priests of Aman Re demanded gold and power as tribute. It reached the point where the priests power rivaled that of Pharoah.

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 6:52PM #9
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,382

May 7, 2012 -- 6:49PM, Marcion wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 11:15AM, mokantx wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 10:01AM, Marcion wrote:


Are the catholic laity ever going to wake up and confront the self serving hierarchy?

If every intelligent catholic withheld contributions on Sunday you would see action pretty soon. The dumb sheep will continue to be led by the evil clergy so we can't expect anything from them.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-pass...




Marcion


Sadly, I think the answer to your question is that it's not likely that the confrontation will take place. The implications of doing so would be pretty jarring to most Catholics. 




The real problem is that the sheep far outnumber intelligent catholics. It is just the nature of priest-based religions; an evil that goes back to ancient times. The Egyptian priests of Aman Re demanded gold and power as tribute. It reached the point where the priests power rivaled that of Pharoah.




And a magnificent civilization blossomed.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 7:37PM #10
Buggsy
Posts: 4,732

May 7, 2012 -- 6:52PM, SeraphimR wrote:


And a magnificent civilization blossomed.



Are you sure?  I think that's when it started to deteriorate.  The early Egyptians were astronomers and builders of the great pyramids of the old kingdoms.  It was later when a priest class caste all that science and astronomy into mythical heros and magic that exacted the taxes from the dutiful flock and captured the imagination of the public.  Down it went into decline.


Irrationalism, superstition and myth always wins out over logic and reason in the public mind.  And it can rival even science and politics and take over the agenda.


The High Priests nominally owed allegiance to the king, but in practice they comprised an independent line of hereditary rulers, whose status was not solely religious, as they also held the title of Army Leader, making their regime probably more of a military dictatorship than a Taliban-style theocracy.


Here: www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/...

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