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Switch to Forum Live View Jesus and the kingdom of God
2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 6:26AM #21
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

May 7, 2012 -- 10:20PM, Ed.W wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 9:38PM, Adelphe wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 9:18PM, Ed.W wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 10:40AM, dio wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 10:18AM, Blü wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 3:39PM, dio wrote:
The living Jesus never said "my kingdom is not of this world".

Except at John 18:36 where he says it in the course of being arrested.


if Jesus really said this, who was there with Jesus and Pilate to report these words? Jesus never taught this to his disciples.


Pilate was interviewed by the 1st century media after the Passover and Pilate told us that is what Jesus said.


LOL


And there's also roving reporter John--"Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. Since that disciple was known to the high priest, he entered with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest, but Peter stood outside at the door. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and spoke to the servant girl who kept watch at the door, and brought Peter in...


...Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor's headquarters. It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor's headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover."


(John had already eaten the Passover and so wouldn't be defiled.)


Except this appears to be the nighttime inquiry before Annas.


There seems to be a certain amount of disagreement, among believers, on the whereabouts of the Kingdom ... EmbarassedSurprisedYellCool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 8:30AM #22
Ed.W
Posts: 9,404

May 8, 2012 -- 6:26AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


There seems to be a certain amount of disagreement, among believers, on the whereabouts of the Kingdom ...

MdS




I've read every post, Mario, and I don't see the disagreement.  We all seem to believe that the Kingdom of God is the Person of Jesus Christ. 


(I hope that doesn't do violence to your peculiar ontology of Christ.)

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 8:32AM #23
Blü
Posts: 23,974

Ed


We all seem to believe that the Kingdom of God is the Person of Jesus Christ.


And your biblical authority for that is - what?

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 8:47AM #24
Ed.W
Posts: 9,404

May 8, 2012 -- 8:32AM, Blü wrote:


Ed


We all seem to believe that the Kingdom of God is the Person of Jesus Christ.


And your biblical authority for that is - what?




Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 10:52AM #25
lope
Posts: 9,691

May 8, 2012 -- 6:26AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 10:20PM, Ed.W wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 9:38PM, Adelphe wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 9:18PM, Ed.W wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 10:40AM, dio wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 10:18AM, Blü wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 3:39PM, dio wrote:
The living Jesus never said "my kingdom is not of this world".

Except at John 18:36 where he says it in the course of being arrested.


if Jesus really said this, who was there with Jesus and Pilate to report these words? Jesus never taught this to his disciples.


Pilate was interviewed by the 1st century media after the Passover and Pilate told us that is what Jesus said.


LOL


And there's also roving reporter John--"Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. Since that disciple was known to the high priest, he entered with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest, but Peter stood outside at the door. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and spoke to the servant girl who kept watch at the door, and brought Peter in...


...Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor's headquarters. It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor's headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover."


(John had already eaten the Passover and so wouldn't be defiled.)


Except this appears to be the nighttime inquiry before Annas.


There seems to be a certain amount of disagreement, among believers, on the whereabouts of the Kingdom ... EmbarassedSurprisedYellCool


MdS





I thinkk the whereabouts is where God is and God is a spirit and not limited to a place.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 11:14AM #26
Blü
Posts: 23,974

Ed


Yes, I thought it was something like that.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 12:33PM #27
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

May 8, 2012 -- 6:26AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

There seems to be a certain amount of disagreement, among believers, on the whereabouts of the Kingdom ...


May 8, 2012 -- 8:30AM, Ed.W wrote:

I've read every post, Mario, and I don't see the disagreement.


Er ... of course we still have unquestionably different ... er ... "opinions" on whether Jesus actually said "my kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36) ...


... just for starters ...


We all seem to believe that the Kingdom of God is the Person of Jesus Christ.


Really? So far, all I can see is that ONLY Rgurley has affirmed, loud and clear ...


“First and foremost, the KINGDOM of GOD / HEAVEN is a PERSON!”
-- Rgurley4, post #5


... and dio's reaction (post #7) doesn't seem exactly one of ... er ... full agreement ...


(I hope that doesn't do violence to your peculiar ontology of Christ.)


Actually I quite agree with ALL of Rgurley's four points ...


... I said ALL, NONE excluded ...


... though ... [#]

May 8, 2012 -- 8:47AM, Ed.W wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 8:32AM, Blü wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 8:30AM, Ed.W wrote:

We all seem to believe that the Kingdom of God is the Person of Jesus Christ.


And your biblical authority for that is - what?


[Katy Perry sings "Hot N Cold" with Elmo on Sesame Street! -- YouTube, 2:33]


LOL!


MdS


[#] Perhaps Rgurley's point #3 is a tad too literalistic, but this is a minor disagreement, compared to our shared belief that the Second Coming will happen literally here, on earth, in the span of a generation from its first "symptoms" ...

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 12:57PM #28
dio
Posts: 4,315

 


I wouldn't say it is now wherever believers are.


Mostly Jesus was saying; "you people don't get it" . 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 8:52PM #29
weberhome02
Posts: 1,697

.

May 7, 2012 -- 10:40AM, dio wrote:

if Jesus really said this, who was there with Jesus and Pilate to report these words?


You mean; like a stenographer?


How about God's words in the first chapter of Genesis? Who was there to record them since no humans existed till God was ready to wrap it up?


"God said: let there be light"


"God said: let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."


"God said: let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear. God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas"


"God said: let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth"


"God said: let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."


"God blessed them, saying: be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."


"God said: let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind"


"God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."



May 7, 2012 -- 10:40AM, dio wrote:

Jesus never taught this to his disciples.


You sure about that? He spent forty days with his followers before pulling up stakes and retreating to heaven and undergoing the coronation depicted at Dan 7:13-14.


Cliff
/

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 12:04AM #30
simonzur
Posts: 3,660

May 7, 2012 -- 9:33AM, dio wrote:


Jesus said the kingdom is now. Not in the past, not in the future. He allegorically tried to wake up the blind, and the deaf, heal the sick, and the lame, the vain and insane, rich and poor, the paralyzed, even the dead to the fact that the kingdom is now in the present moment to be lived by awake healthy free people.


 




The kingdom of God is now, but that is not what it is which is the conversation that your OP seems to have sparked.
The kingdom of God is that state of being in which its citizens exist in eternal life.  It is comprised of the laws that govern the conduct of all things physical and non-physical.

Jesus did say that his kingdom is not of this world.  This pertains to the state of being that exists within the world in which its citizens exist in temporal life.  It is comprised of the laws that govern the conduct of physical and non-physical things in contradiction to the kingdom of God.

Jesus' point in saying that his kingdom is not of this world is that the kingdom of God cannot be propogated from that state of being that comprises the kingdom of the world.  No, it does and must come from out of this world, from heaven.  For this reason, Jesus taught Nicodemus that he could neither see nor enter the kingdom of heaven unless he was born from above.  This means that the kingdom of God can only be propogated from the kingdom of God.  Jesus said of himself that he was from above and his audience was from below indicating that he had been conceived in the kingdom of God while they had had been conceived in the kingdom of the world.  In another place, Jesus said that he had come from the Father to the world, and that he would leave the world and return to the Father.  Again, he indicates that he had come from above (the kingdom of God) to the world.  When he came, he existed as the kingdom of God as he does even now.  He is the kingdom of God and he lives in the kingdom of God.  This is the same principle as when he said that he is in the Father and the Father was in him.

The kingdom is not so much a place as it is the state of being that governs that place in accordance with the will of God, while the kingdom of the world is the antithetical state of being to it.


 

"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."~ The Revelation
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