Post Reply
Page 2 of 14  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 14 Next
2 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 2:59PM #11
57
Posts: 20,512

koolpoi,


Why do you assume Jesus lied?  


Do you hate Jesus that much that you feel the need to attack Christianity? 


Are there no other option out there besides your arrogant demand that Jesus lied?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 5:14PM #12
koolpoi
Posts: 5,904

May 9, 2012 -- 2:59PM, 57 wrote:


koolpoi,


Why do you assume Jesus lied?  


Do you hate Jesus that much that you feel the need to attack Christianity? 


Are there no other option out there besides your arrogant demand that Jesus lied?




Why do you assume Jesus did not lie?Christians assert that He was fully human and total honesty does not seem to come naturally to us.The passage certainly seems to suggest that He was deceptive.Why is that possibility so unacceptable?Why do you assume exploring the meaning of an NT passage must come from hate of Jesus?You seem to assume your understanding of Jesus' life can not be questioned.Is your knowledge so perfect?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 6:33PM #13
57
Posts: 20,512

May 9, 2012 -- 5:14PM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 2:59PM, 57 wrote:


koolpoi,


Why do you assume Jesus lied?  


Do you hate Jesus that much that you feel the need to attack Christianity? 


Are there no other option out there besides your arrogant demand that Jesus lied?




Why do you assume Jesus did not lie?Christians assert that He was fully human and total honesty does not seem to come naturally to us.The passage certainly seems to suggest that He was deceptive.Why is that possibility so unacceptable?Why do you assume exploring the meaning of an NT passage must come from hate of Jesus?You seem to assume your understanding of Jesus' life can not be questioned.Is your knowledge so perfect?




If Christ lied then He could not have died on the cross and taken on the sins of the believers. 


Do you not know that Jesus lived a sinless life? 



Soooooooooo, do you enjoy attacking christianity?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 12:58AM #14
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

May 8, 2012 -- 12:14AM, Ed.W wrote:

]


I think Jesus was just tired of the lousy bunch and didn't care to travel with them.  It would have given a blessing so to speak to some people that just didn't get it.  Jesus wasn't going to give them the notoriety of "Jesus travelled with our group" when they clearly didn't believe in him.



I agree--in the context, the author makes a point of saying "for not even His brothers believed in Him.":


So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” For not even his brothers believed in him.


It's also clear they wanted Him to perform some of His "magic tricks."




It's a fairly rich story if you unpack it.



I agree.


All Christians take it that Jesus didn't (couldn't) lie, so the question becomes why did He say "I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come"?  A few days later, His time (apparently) had "fully come."  Looks like He was timing something--probably the end of the feast with the pouring out of the water,


"37  On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."


It was also His last public proclamation, before His Passion.








Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 1:02AM #15
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

May 8, 2012 -- 7:16PM, koolpoi wrote:


It would have been easy enough to have said that the Father spoke to Jesus after the latter said He wouldn't go.As written, the text seems to have Jesus lying.Considering the implications of Jesus deceiving his followers,it would have made sense to have been clear on this....unless of course the writer of this passage found nothing wrong with Jesus lying.




Here's the Greek.


The word used is "oupo" which is "not yet."


I do believe Jesus was deliberately timing something.  Just what, exactly, remains obscure (if not simply avoiding a scene with demands for miracles and the like which would have likely resulted in His death right then rather than much later.)  In fact the context in the preceeding and subsequent chaptesr is His signs and works and demands for Him to both perform and to cease them.  He heals the man blind from birth incidentally--almost "in passing"--and then we read about the raising of Lazarus from the dead which signed His death warrant.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 1:13AM #16
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

btw, isn't it ironic?


"I heal, make whole, and give life."


"Well then--we're just gonna have to kill you."


A profound (theological) message there...

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 5:51AM #17
koolpoi
Posts: 5,904

May 9, 2012 -- 6:33PM, 57 wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 5:14PM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 2:59PM, 57 wrote:


koolpoi,


Why do you assume Jesus lied?  


Do you hate Jesus that much that you feel the need to attack Christianity? 


Are there no other option out there besides your arrogant demand that Jesus lied?




Why do you assume Jesus did not lie?Christians assert that He was fully human and total honesty does not seem to come naturally to us.The passage certainly seems to suggest that He was deceptive.Why is that possibility so unacceptable?Why do you assume exploring the meaning of an NT passage must come from hate of Jesus?You seem to assume your understanding of Jesus' life can not be questioned.Is your knowledge so perfect?




If Christ lied then He could not have died on the cross and taken on the sins of the believers. 


Do you not know that Jesus lived a sinless life? 



Soooooooooo, do you enjoy attacking christianity?




As I understand Christian doctrine,God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes.Since Jesus is God,the same should be true for Him.So He can lie if He wishes and still be a sacrifice.Soooooo why would it be an attack on Christianity to suggest Jesus did what He was entitled to do?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 9:35AM #18
57
Posts: 20,512

May 10, 2012 -- 5:51AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 6:33PM, 57 wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 5:14PM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 2:59PM, 57 wrote:


koolpoi,


Why do you assume Jesus lied?  


Do you hate Jesus that much that you feel the need to attack Christianity? 


Are there no other option out there besides your arrogant demand that Jesus lied?




Why do you assume Jesus did not lie?Christians assert that He was fully human and total honesty does not seem to come naturally to us.The passage certainly seems to suggest that He was deceptive.Why is that possibility so unacceptable?Why do you assume exploring the meaning of an NT passage must come from hate of Jesus?You seem to assume your understanding of Jesus' life can not be questioned.Is your knowledge so perfect?




If Christ lied then He could not have died on the cross and taken on the sins of the believers. 


Do you not know that Jesus lived a sinless life? 



Soooooooooo, do you enjoy attacking christianity?




As I understand Christian doctrine,God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes.Since Jesus is God,the same should be true for Him.So He can lie if He wishes and still be a sacrifice.Soooooo why would it be an attack on Christianity to suggest Jesus did what He was entitled to do?




The problem is you don't understand Christian doctrine.   If you did you would not have attacked it in the fashion you did and always do. 


If you want to discuss Christianity have at it. 

Moderated by Adelphe on May 11, 2012 - 08:36AM
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 5:25PM #19
koolpoi
Posts: 5,904

May 10, 2012 -- 9:35AM, 57 wrote:


May 10, 2012 -- 5:51AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 6:33PM, 57 wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 5:14PM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 2:59PM, 57 wrote:


koolpoi,


Why do you assume Jesus lied?  


Do you hate Jesus that much that you feel the need to attack Christianity? 


Are there no other option out there besides your arrogant demand that Jesus lied?




Why do you assume Jesus did not lie?Christians assert that He was fully human and total honesty does not seem to come naturally to us.The passage certainly seems to suggest that He was deceptive.Why is that possibility so unacceptable?Why do you assume exploring the meaning of an NT passage must come from hate of Jesus?You seem to assume your understanding of Jesus' life can not be questioned.Is your knowledge so perfect?




If Christ lied then He could not have died on the cross and taken on the sins of the believers. 


Do you not know that Jesus lived a sinless life? 



Soooooooooo, do you enjoy attacking christianity?




As I understand Christian doctrine,God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes.Since Jesus is God,the same should be true for Him.So He can lie if He wishes and still be a sacrifice.Soooooo why would it be an attack on Christianity to suggest Jesus did what He was entitled to do?




The problem is you don't understand Christian doctrine.   If you did you would not have attacked it in the fashion you did and always do. 


If you want to discuss Christianity have at it. 




It's interesting you say I don't understand Christian doctrine but don't explain where my understanding is wrong.Is God not sovereign?Is Jesus not God?

Moderated by Adelphe on May 11, 2012 - 08:37AM
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 5:27PM #20
57
Posts: 20,512

May 10, 2012 -- 5:25PM, koolpoi wrote:


May 10, 2012 -- 9:35AM, 57 wrote:


May 10, 2012 -- 5:51AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 6:33PM, 57 wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 5:14PM, koolpoi wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 2:59PM, 57 wrote:


koolpoi,


Why do you assume Jesus lied?  


Do you hate Jesus that much that you feel the need to attack Christianity? 


Are there no other option out there besides your arrogant demand that Jesus lied?




Why do you assume Jesus did not lie?Christians assert that He was fully human and total honesty does not seem to come naturally to us.The passage certainly seems to suggest that He was deceptive.Why is that possibility so unacceptable?Why do you assume exploring the meaning of an NT passage must come from hate of Jesus?You seem to assume your understanding of Jesus' life can not be questioned.Is your knowledge so perfect?




If Christ lied then He could not have died on the cross and taken on the sins of the believers


Do you not know that Jesus lived a sinless life? 



Soooooooooo, do you enjoy attacking christianity?




As I understand Christian doctrine,God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes.Since Jesus is God,the same should be true for Him.So He can lie if He wishes and still be a sacrifice.Soooooo why would it be an attack on Christianity to suggest Jesus did what He was entitled to do?




The problem is you don't understand Christian doctrine.   If you did you would not have attacked it in the fashion you did and always do. 


If you want to discuss Christianity have at it. 




It's interesting you say I don't understand Christian doctrine but don't explain where my understanding is wrong.Is God not sovereign?Is Jesus not God?




Didn't you read what I wrote?  

Moderated by Adelphe on May 11, 2012 - 08:38AM
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 2 of 14  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 14 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook