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Switch to Forum Live View Why Did Jesus Lie?
13 months ago  ::  May 26, 2012 - 9:52AM #101
koolpoi
koolpoi
Posts: 4,289

May 26, 2012 -- 9:41AM, Kodiacman wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 7:56AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 23, 2012 -- 9:12AM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 22, 2012 -- 6:34PM, koolpoi wrote:

If there is no translation with yet,that seems to indicate that no translator found the possible "yet" you suggest to be the most likely meaning.That is my point.I am not talking about absolute certainties but likelihoods.


I’m not really concerned about likelihoods.  You positively asserted that Christ lied; therefore, it is incumbent upon you to definitively prove that Christ lied.  You can’t do that since Christ’s words don’t exclude Mme. Adelphe’s interpretation.




So the likihood of Jesus lying doesn't bother you?




K,


That is not what Jlb stated in his post.


blessings,


kodiacman




He is entitled to not care about likelihoods just as I am entitled to care.
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13 months ago  ::  May 26, 2012 - 10:47PM #102
Adelphe
Adelphe
Posts: 28,535

May 26, 2012 -- 9:52AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 9:41AM, Kodiacman wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 7:56AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 23, 2012 -- 9:12AM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 22, 2012 -- 6:34PM, koolpoi wrote:

If there is no translation with yet,that seems to indicate that no translator found the possible "yet" you suggest to be the most likely meaning.That is my point.I am not talking about absolute certainties but likelihoods.


I’m not really concerned about likelihoods.  You positively asserted that Christ lied; therefore, it is incumbent upon you to definitively prove that Christ lied.  You can’t do that since Christ’s words don’t exclude Mme. Adelphe’s interpretation.




So the likihood of Jesus lying doesn't bother you?




K,


That is not what Jlb stated in his post.


blessings,


kodiacman




He is entitled to not care about likelihoods just as I am entitled to care.




I thought you didn't, though.  A few posts back:


May 13, 2012 -- 9:30AM, koolpoi wrote:


I agree that lying to a robber is not a sin and since it is, not why would it detract from someone's perfection?Jesus lied in order to fulfill God's plan.Could there be any more moral purpose?



Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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13 months ago  ::  May 26, 2012 - 11:04PM #103
koolpoi
koolpoi
Posts: 4,289

May 26, 2012 -- 10:47PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 9:52AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 9:41AM, Kodiacman wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 7:56AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 23, 2012 -- 9:12AM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 22, 2012 -- 6:34PM, koolpoi wrote:

If there is no translation with yet,that seems to indicate that no translator found the possible "yet" you suggest to be the most likely meaning.That is my point.I am not talking about absolute certainties but likelihoods.


I’m not really concerned about likelihoods.  You positively asserted that Christ lied; therefore, it is incumbent upon you to definitively prove that Christ lied.  You can’t do that since Christ’s words don’t exclude Mme. Adelphe’s interpretation.




So the likihood of Jesus lying doesn't bother you?




K,


That is not what Jlb stated in his post.


blessings,


kodiacman




He is entitled to not care about likelihoods just as I am entitled to care.




I thought you didn't, though.  A few posts back:


May 13, 2012 -- 9:30AM, koolpoi wrote:


I agree that lying to a robber is not a sin and since it is, not why would it detract from someone's perfection?Jesus lied in order to fulfill God's plan.Could there be any more moral purpose?






My point was that if Jesus lied to help carry out God's plan,that would seem to be a moral act.People have various reasons for not telling all the truth all the time.Understanding those reasons can help you understand the person.
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13 months ago  ::  May 26, 2012 - 11:15PM #104
Adelphe
Adelphe
Posts: 28,535

May 26, 2012 -- 11:04PM, koolpoi wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 10:47PM, Adelphe wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 9:52AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 9:41AM, Kodiacman wrote:


May 26, 2012 -- 7:56AM, koolpoi wrote:


May 23, 2012 -- 9:12AM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 22, 2012 -- 6:34PM, koolpoi wrote:

If there is no translation with yet,that seems to indicate that no translator found the possible "yet" you suggest to be the most likely meaning.That is my point.I am not talking about absolute certainties but likelihoods.


I’m not really concerned about likelihoods.  You positively asserted that Christ lied; therefore, it is incumbent upon you to definitively prove that Christ lied.  You can’t do that since Christ’s words don’t exclude Mme. Adelphe’s interpretation.




So the likihood of Jesus lying doesn't bother you?




K,


That is not what Jlb stated in his post.


blessings,


kodiacman




He is entitled to not care about likelihoods just as I am entitled to care.




I thought you didn't, though.  A few posts back:


May 13, 2012 -- 9:30AM, koolpoi wrote:


I agree that lying to a robber is not a sin and since it is, not why would it detract from someone's perfection?Jesus lied in order to fulfill God's plan.Could there be any more moral purpose?






My point was that if Jesus lied to help carry out God's plan,that would seem to be a moral act.People have various reasons for not telling all the truth all the time.Understanding those reasons can help you understand the person.




I think the point here is that a few Christians on this thread don't believe Jesus lies.  jlb has argued that not all lies are wrong.  You agree.  Either way, Jesus "did the right thing", according to you, right?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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13 months ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 12:10AM #105
koolpoi
koolpoi
Posts: 4,289

Some Christians say Jesus never lied but that seems the most likely explanation of this story.There seems to be some contradiction.Lying is not a good thing but it may serve a moral purpose.
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13 months ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 8:48AM #106
Adelphe
Adelphe
Posts: 28,535

May 27, 2012 -- 12:10AM, koolpoi wrote:


Some Christians say Jesus never lied but that seems the most likely explanation of this story.There seems to be some contradiction.Lying is not a good thing but it may serve a moral purpose.




I really don't know what you're doing with that little word--most definitely present in the text--"yet."

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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13 months ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 9:08AM #107
Ed.W
Ed.W
Posts: 9,067

May 27, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 27, 2012 -- 12:10AM, koolpoi wrote:


Some Christians say Jesus never lied but that seems the most likely explanation of this story.There seems to be some contradiction.Lying is not a good thing but it may serve a moral purpose.




I really don't know what you're doing with that little word--most definitely present in the text--"yet."





He seems to be ignoring the word yet in 7:6 and the entire verse of 7:6.  He seems to have become enamored with Blu's "debate" style and adopted it.  That is, ignore the problems in your argument, repeat the error louder, and say it last.



The suggestion for Jesus to go to the feast is at 7:3.  His response is at 7:6.  Kool wants to ignore 7:6 and make 7:8 be the sole answer to his brothers.


It's a combination of lifting verses out of context, resequencing verses, limiting meaning of the text to only one meaning and to a very narrow meaning.


It's funny his honest response to this post would be:  "You're correct.  But defend the Bible as I present it.  Grade me on my ability to fool people."  I'd say that even leaves something to be desired....  You and Blu are about equally as bad at it.



Discretion is the better part of valor.
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13 months ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 9:13AM #108
Adelphe
Adelphe
Posts: 28,535

May 27, 2012 -- 9:08AM, Ed.W wrote:

...That is ignore the problems, repeat it louder, and say it last.




LOL!!!

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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13 months ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 9:19AM #109
koolpoi
koolpoi
Posts: 4,289

May 27, 2012 -- 9:08AM, Ed.W wrote:


May 27, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Adelphe wrote:


May 27, 2012 -- 12:10AM, koolpoi wrote:


Some Christians say Jesus never lied but that seems the most likely explanation of this story.There seems to be some contradiction.Lying is not a good thing but it may serve a moral purpose.




I really don't know what you're doing with that little word--most definitely present in the text--"yet."





He seems to be ignoring the word yet in 7:6 and the entire verse of 7:6.  He seems to have become enamored with Blu's "debate" style and adopted it.  That is, ignore the problems in your argument, repeat the error louder, and say it last.



The suggestion for Jesus to go to the feast is at 7:3.  His response is at 7:6.  Kool wants to ignore 7:6 and make 7:8 be the sole answer to his brothers.


It's a combination of lifting verses out of context, resequencing verses, limiting meaning of the text to only one meaning and to a very narrow meaning.


It's funny his honest response to this post would be:  "You're correct.  But defend the Bible as I present it.  Grade me on my ability to fool people."  I'd say that even leaves something to be desired....  You and Blu are about equally as bad at it.






As I suggested before, present the story to anyone unfamiliar with it (and don't mention it is about Jesus) and ask them if Jesus was being truthful.IMO 7:6-7 is Jesus' explanation about why he will not be going.
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13 months ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 10:14AM #110
Ed.W
Ed.W
Posts: 9,067

May 27, 2012 -- 9:19AM, koolpoi wrote:



As I suggested before, present the story to anyone unfamiliar with it (and don't mention it is about Jesus) and ask them if Jesus was being truthful.IMO 7:6-7 is Jesus' explanation about why he will not be going.




I would say the person had some tasks yet uncompleted in Galilee and chose not to travel at the particular time that a particular group was planning on traveling.  (v6 "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.)



v8 is a theological play on words that you will not be able to understand. 


"I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come."




And that upon completion of those tasks he then decided to attend the feast and traveled alone.  (v10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.)


That's what the text suggests to me, as an educated "man on the street".




As an uneducated "man on the street", I'd say that he simply changed his mind. 




You are using scrutiny here that you'd apply to no one else.  If your mother said, I'm not going to the party, but then shows up at the party, are you going to call her "a liar"?  No.  You will say, "I'm glad you changed your mind."


I only wish we could discuss real issues rather than tactics used to intentionally misinterpret a text. 



Discretion is the better part of valor.
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