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Switch to Forum Live View Do demons get out of hell in the end?
2 years ago  ::  May 12, 2012 - 1:26PM #41
lope
Posts: 11,660

May 12, 2012 -- 10:01AM, 57 wrote:


May 11, 2012 -- 11:32AM, lope wrote:


May 11, 2012 -- 11:08AM, 57 wrote:


May 11, 2012 -- 10:51AM, lope wrote:



We all make many mistakes.  James 3:2.  Therefore none of us have a perfect gospel message.  Therefore it is you belief but not the teaching of the Bible that presentation of an incorrect gospel has no salvation in it.  You have created rules that require believing Jesus died on the crose to receive eternal lilfe.  The Bible does not teach that--only you and people with your theology teaches that, not the bible, not God.  The other rules you created are the same.  These are not what Jesus said when He was ask how do we inherit eternal life.  You have cut that part out of the bible and inserted your rules that do not come from the bible and are not in the bible.


If you are presented a salvation message where you are informed that Jesus didn't really die on the cross...there is no salvation in that Gospel message.  The reason is easily understood.  You have been presented a false Jesus.


I believe Adam was not a real person.  This in no way forces me to cut out every verse in the NT that presents Jesus as a literal historical individual.  I certainl believe Jesus was a literal historical individual.  That is not in conflict with my believe the story of Adam was symbolic and did not refer to an actual person. 


In my post I typed Jesus by mistake.  I meant to say Adam.  If Adam wasn't a literal historical person then Paul made several mistakes when he presents him as such.  Now, if Paul messed up there...where else did Paul get it wrong?  Then again my mistake where I types Jesus instead of  Adam syill holds water.  If Paul presents Adam as  symbolic and not referring to an actual person...what keeps Paul from presenting Jesus as symbolic and not referring to an actual person?


I agree that the bible teaches the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  I do not agree that the bible teaches we must believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ to inherit eternal life, but if the bible does teach that I reject it as divine truth.  I believe the Bible and Jesus taught that God is good and God is loving and kind and merciful.  I believe that to be divine truth.  When the Bible or any theology presents God as evil and murderous and a torturer of people and a killer of children I reject that theology as being divine truth.  I don't believe that about God and it is not compatible with being good and loving and kind and merciful.


If you don't believe in the resurrection...are you not rejecting divine truth?










I have no problem with the possibility of Paul being wrong about some things.  I am personally certain Paul made many mistake in theology also. 


Oh he may have, but what is written and has become canonized I doubt it.   The logic is simple...if Paul got theology wrong in just one place in the bible it calls into question the other places Paul wrote about theology.  How do you know what part are correct? 


We know what parts are correct by using the mind God gave us and comparing what God has written on our hearts with what we are told by other human beings is divine truth.




You don't seem to understand that we all make many mistakes. 


I fully understand we all make mistakes...which becomes your problem later on when you don't allow for mistakes.


I do allow for mistakes.  I don't know what you are talking about.


That is divine truth.  Making mistakes in theology is not what prevents our receiving eternal life.


That would depend on what part of theology you are talking about. If you are talking about a certain interpretation from the book of Revelation you are correct...but if you are talking about theology surrounding the salvation message you would  then be dead wrong.


It does not depend on what part of theology you are talking about.  James 3:2 does not limit what it says to what theology you are talking about.


  The sheep made the mistake of not understanding that loving others was loving Jesus and the goats made the mistake of not believing their mistreatment of others was mistreating Jesus.


Are you not a goat from time to time?  Keep in mind just a few sentences up you said we all make mistakes.  


I did not say we are all goats.  I make mistakes but as a child of God I am never a goat, just because of being human and imperfect.  If I turn from being obediant to the law of love and adopt an unloving lifestyle, then and only then am I a goat.


 


Their mistakes in understand things about Jesus had nothing to do with their being admitted into the presence of the father or not.   It was their loving or unloving actions that were the determining factor. 


Once again, are you telling me you are always "loving" and never have "unloving" actions?


Once again you are not reading what is written.  I never told you I was perfect.  I told you the opposite of that.


 Rejecting divine truth is not what keeps us out of heaven. 


Divine truth is recognizing Jesus Christ died for your sins.  If you reject that divine truth it will keep you out of heaven.


So you believe.  This is not what Jesus taught.


Wickedness--being unloving toward others according to Jesus and the bible is what blocks us from receiving eternal life. 


Oh, you poor soul.  You just gave away your salvation with that statement.  Every man is wicked.  Some more than others. 


Oh you poor soul.  I am talking about being obediant to the command of Jesus.  Everyman making mistakes and falling short does not erase the commands of Jesus.


I am personally of the opinion that you are making some theological mistakes in your rules about who gets saved and why. 


You present  salvation as dependent on what you do. You have fallen into the gospel of salvation through works....which condemns you because you can never be loving enough.


No my receiving the gift of eternal life is based on grace.  You have no excuse for making this statment.


I don't think however those mistakes are what will prevent your being admited into the presence of God.


It is sin that prevents you from being admitted into the presence of God.  There is a need to have sin forgiven.  This salvation does not occur because you feel "loving towards God today" then want to go out and earn your way into heaven.  Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the cross.  Your love for God and good works are a result of salvation and not the other way around.


You are so eat up with your theology you are unable to listen or think for yourself.  You refuse to read what I post.  I have clearly told you about loving toward God not being a feeling or emotion, but action but you have closed your ears and continue to argue with me as if I have never said anything.  You have cut out Paul's teaching that faith without love is worthless and chosen to ignore it.



 


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 12, 2012 - 1:47PM #42
57
Posts: 23,122

May 12, 2012 -- 1:26PM, lope wrote:



57:My response is in blue.



I have no problem with the possibility of Paul being wrong about some things.  I am personally certain Paul made many mistake in theology also. 


Oh he may have, but what is written and has become canonized I doubt it.   The logic is simple...if Paul got theology wrong in just one place in the bible it calls into question the other places Paul wrote about theology.  How do you know what part are correct? 


We know what parts are correct by using the mind God gave us and comparing what God has written on our hearts with what we are told by other human beings is divine truth.




You don't seem to understand that we all make many mistakes. 


I fully understand we all make mistakes...which becomes your problem later on when you don't allow for mistakes.


I do allow for mistakes.  I don't know what you are talking about.


I'm sure you figured out what I was saying as you read on.


That is divine truth.  Making mistakes in theology is not what prevents our receiving eternal life.


That would depend on what part of theology you are talking about. If you are talking about a certain interpretation from the book of Revelation you are correct...but if you are talking about theology surrounding the salvation message you would  then be dead wrong.


It does not depend on what part of theology you are talking about.  James 3:2 does not limit what it says to what theology you are talking about.


If you follow the wrong theology that presents a false Christ...you have no salvation. 


  The sheep made the mistake of not understanding that loving others was loving Jesus and the goats made the mistake of not believing their mistreatment of others was mistreating Jesus.


Are you not a goat from time to time?  Keep in mind just a few sentences up you said we all make mistakes.  


I did not say we are all goats.  I make mistakes but as a child of God I am never a goat, just because of being human and imperfect.  If I turn from being obediant to the law of love and adopt an unloving lifestyle, then and only then am I a goat.


Once again, you fall into your own trap...You said you makes mistakes, sin, and often we all turn from obediance to this sin outside of the will of God....according to you we become goats.  What happens? Do we flip-flop back and forth depending on the moment of out life? 


Their mistakes in understand things about Jesus had nothing to do with their being admitted into the presence of the father or not.   It was their loving or unloving actions that were the determining factor. 


Once again, are you telling me you are always "loving" and never have "unloving" actions?


Once again you are not reading what is written.  I never told you I was perfect.  I told you the opposite of that.


If you are NOT PERFECT...your works based salvation means nothing. 


 Rejecting divine truth is not what keeps us out of heaven. 


Divine truth is recognizing Jesus Christ died for your sins.  If you reject that divine truth it will keep you out of heaven.


So you believe.  This is not what Jesus taught.


Jesus Christ didn't die for our sins?  Did you really say that?


Wickedness--being unloving toward others according to Jesus and the bible is what blocks us from receiving eternal life. 


Oh, you poor soul.  You just gave away your salvation with that statement.  Every man is wicked.  Some more than others. 


Oh you poor soul.  I am talking about being obediant to the command of Jesus.  Everyman making mistakes and falling short does not erase the commands of Jesus.


Do you "follow" the commands of Jesus to obtain salvation or as a result of your salvation? 


I am personally of the opinion that you are making some theological mistakes in your rules about who gets saved and why. 


You present  salvation as dependent on what you do. You have fallen into the gospel of salvation through works....which condemns you because you can never be loving enough.


No my receiving the gift of eternal life is based on grace.  You have no excuse for making this statment.


Grace dependent upun your works?    


I don't think however those mistakes are what will prevent your being admited into the presence of God.


It is sin that prevents you from being admitted into the presence of God.  There is a need to have sin forgiven.  This salvation does not occur because you feel "loving towards God today" then want to go out and earn your way into heaven.  Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the cross.  Your love for God and good works are a result of salvation and not the other way around.


You are so eat up with your theology you are unable to listen or think for yourself.  You refuse to read what I post.  I have clearly told you about loving toward God not being a feeling or emotion, but action but you have closed your ears and continue to argue with me as if I have never said anything.  You have cut out Paul's teaching that faith without love is worthless and chosen to ignore it.


Faith without love is worthless.  It is because you have faith, and faith alone in what Jesus did..Gods Grace and Mercy can work and wash your sins away...salvation.....then you have the ability to truly love.   You seem to be saying all that following and love which you do produces salvation.  If you truly are saying that then you have it backwards.  That's the point I've been trying to make with you. 



 


 





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2 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 12:46PM #43
lope
Posts: 11,660

May 12, 2012 -- 1:47PM, 57 wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 1:26PM, lope wrote:



57:My response is in blue.



I have no problem with the possibility of Paul being wrong about some things.  I am personally certain Paul made many mistake in theology also. 


Oh he may have, but what is written and has become canonized I doubt it.   The logic is simple...if Paul got theology wrong in just one place in the bible it calls into question the other places Paul wrote about theology.  How do you know what part are correct? 


We know what parts are correct by using the mind God gave us and comparing what God has written on our hearts with what we are told by other human beings is divine truth.




You don't seem to understand that we all make many mistakes. 


I fully understand we all make mistakes...which becomes your problem later on when you don't allow for mistakes.


I do allow for mistakes.  I don't know what you are talking about.


I'm sure you figured out what I was saying as you read on.


That is divine truth.  Making mistakes in theology is not what prevents our receiving eternal life.


That would depend on what part of theology you are talking about. If you are talking about a certain interpretation from the book of Revelation you are correct...but if you are talking about theology surrounding the salvation message you would  then be dead wrong.


It does not depend on what part of theology you are talking about.  James 3:2 does not limit what it says to what theology you are talking about.


If you follow the wrong theology that presents a false Christ...you have no salvation. 


  The sheep made the mistake of not understanding that loving others was loving Jesus and the goats made the mistake of not believing their mistreatment of others was mistreating Jesus.


Are you not a goat from time to time?  Keep in mind just a few sentences up you said we all make mistakes.  


I did not say we are all goats.  I make mistakes but as a child of God I am never a goat, just because of being human and imperfect.  If I turn from being obediant to the law of love and adopt an unloving lifestyle, then and only then am I a goat.


Once again, you fall into your own trap...You said you makes mistakes, sin, and often we all turn from obediance to this sin outside of the will of God....according to you we become goats.  What happens? Do we flip-flop back and forth depending on the moment of out life? 


Their mistakes in understand things about Jesus had nothing to do with their being admitted into the presence of the father or not.   It was their loving or unloving actions that were the determining factor. 


Once again, are you telling me you are always "loving" and never have "unloving" actions?


Once again you are not reading what is written.  I never told you I was perfect.  I told you the opposite of that.


If you are NOT PERFECT...your works based salvation means nothing. 


 Rejecting divine truth is not what keeps us out of heaven. 


Divine truth is recognizing Jesus Christ died for your sins.  If you reject that divine truth it will keep you out of heaven.


So you believe.  This is not what Jesus taught.


Jesus Christ didn't die for our sins?  Did you really say that?


Wickedness--being unloving toward others according to Jesus and the bible is what blocks us from receiving eternal life. 


Oh, you poor soul.  You just gave away your salvation with that statement.  Every man is wicked.  Some more than others. 


Oh you poor soul.  I am talking about being obediant to the command of Jesus.  Everyman making mistakes and falling short does not erase the commands of Jesus.


Do you "follow" the commands of Jesus to obtain salvation or as a result of your salvation? 


I am personally of the opinion that you are making some theological mistakes in your rules about who gets saved and why. 


You present  salvation as dependent on what you do. You have fallen into the gospel of salvation through works....which condemns you because you can never be loving enough.


No my receiving the gift of eternal life is based on grace.  You have no excuse for making this statment.


Grace dependent upun your works?    


I don't think however those mistakes are what will prevent your being admited into the presence of God.


It is sin that prevents you from being admitted into the presence of God.  There is a need to have sin forgiven.  This salvation does not occur because you feel "loving towards God today" then want to go out and earn your way into heaven.  Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the cross.  Your love for God and good works are a result of salvation and not the other way around.


You are so eat up with your theology you are unable to listen or think for yourself.  You refuse to read what I post.  I have clearly told you about loving toward God not being a feeling or emotion, but action but you have closed your ears and continue to argue with me as if I have never said anything.  You have cut out Paul's teaching that faith without love is worthless and chosen to ignore it.


Faith without love is worthless.  It is because you have faith, and faith alone in what Jesus did..Gods Grace and Mercy can work and wash your sins away...salvation.....then you have the ability to truly love.   You seem to be saying all that following and love which you do produces salvation.  If you truly are saying that then you have it backwards.  That's the point I've been trying to make with you. 



 


 









And your point is incorrect theology.  A wicked person is able to love before they are righteous.  That is how they turn from wickedness to righteousness.  Neither Jesus nor the bible says we cannot love others until we are saved.  Faith that saves us from a destiny of oblivion is not intellectual assent to what Jesus did.  The demons knew who Jesus was and what He did.  Knowing that did not save them.  That is also not what saved the sheep and it is also not what made the Good Samaritan a good example of how we should act to inherit eternal life.

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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 11:32AM #44
Utilyan
Posts: 5,786

::::POOF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE::::


I am the Devil,  supreme ruler of the forces of darkness.


No we won't leave hell, unless maybe to kick folks out of heaven.  


To be content with God in heavenly conditions for eternity.......yeah thats all it took for you love God.


 


Well we demons are so easily content with God.    I am quite content even just being completely miscontent with God.     The fires of hell can burn and Im still content with God.


Hell must exist for the sake of that one kind of soul among you.   There is always a soul who runs towards fire not away.    The one who fears no one.          There are those who run towards suffering to help those who suffer.   


The one who loves everyone can't call heaven, heaven unless everyone is there.


The one who trusts God completely is satisfied by everything God does,   Believes in God,   would stay in hell joyfully if God commands it.


If you believe it will take a complete heavenly paradise and getting everything you want to finally love God,    then you got a long way pal.



One who is with God finds the a joy far greater then ten thousand heavens in the eyes of even the worst sinners.


God teaches to love how he does,   and go figure he's a good teacher.

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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 3:22PM #45
lope
Posts: 11,660

May 17, 2012 -- 11:32AM, Utilyan wrote:


::::POOF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE::::


I am the Devil,  supreme ruler of the forces of darkness.


No we won't leave hell, unless maybe to kick folks out of heaven.  


To be content with God in heavenly conditions for eternity.......yeah thats all it took for you love God.


 


Well we demons are so easily content with God.    I am quite content even just being completely miscontent with God.     The fires of hell can burn and Im still content with God.


Hell must exist for the sake of that one kind of soul among you.   There is always a soul who runs towards fire not away.    The one who fears no one.          There are those who run towards suffering to help those who suffer.   


The one who loves everyone can't call heaven, heaven unless everyone is there.


The one who trusts God completely is satisfied by everything God does,   Believes in God,   would stay in hell joyfully if God commands it.


If you believe it will take a complete heavenly paradise and getting everything you want to finally love God,    then you got a long way pal.



One who is with God finds the a joy far greater then ten thousand heavens in the eyes of even the worst sinners.


God teaches to love how he does,   and go figure he's a good teacher.




 God also loves us when we do not love as He does, but the wicked still die and shall not live.  And I don't believe in evil spirits.

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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 3:51PM #46
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

If you believe in an Omni, Omni god and you believe in demons, you are saying your god allows demons to exist. Of course if you believe in an Omni Omni god you must also believe your god created demons in the first place. 


Making the god in  question evil, or incompetent. Not very Omni.


I do not believe in demons, and I am not even a Omni Omni god believer.


It is an insult to the god so many claim to worship, their Omni, Omni bible god.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 10:34AM #47
lope
Posts: 11,660

May 17, 2012 -- 3:51PM, mainecaptain wrote:


If you believe in an Omni, Omni god and you believe in demons, you are saying your god allows demons to exist. Of course if you believe in an Omni Omni god you must also believe your god created demons in the first place. 


Making the god in  question evil, or incompetent. Not very Omni.


I do not believe in demons, and I am not even a Omni Omni god believer.


It is an insult to the god so many claim to worship, their Omni, Omni bible god.




God could have created other beings than humans with the ability to chose good and bad resulting in angles and demons.  This would not make God bad or responsible for the ones that chose bad.

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 7:58PM #48
AstralProjectee
Posts: 4

May 8, 2012 -- 7:35PM, mainecaptain wrote:

P.S. Are you Christian, your profile does not say. The belief in demons seems largely exclusive to Abrahamic aherents.


To be honest I'm not sure what I am. If asked I would consider myself a universalist probably. Or a Christian graduated to universalist. But this I can say with absolute certainty I am eternal and I am Atman at my core.



Peace!

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