True, the Flatland tale is old, but the point it makes remains valid. To some extent equations of state that describe fields, which describe space properties in three dimensions and time can yield similar results.
I've never heard that it could solve the EPR problem or explain wave/particle duality. But never mind.
In the 1800's Edwin Abbot wrote a book called Flatland. In it he described two-dimensional beings living in a two-dimensional world, and what it would be like for three-dimensional beings to enter their world, to them, a quite mysterious event.
Jesus said, variously interpreted, the kingdom of heaven is within you, the kingdom of heaven is in your midst. There are two characters in the OT, Enoch and Elijah, who, instead of dying, mysteriously vanished. Enoch walked with God, and was not, because God took him. Elijah went up in a chariot of fire. And we also have the case where Elisha and his servant were surrounded by the soldiers of the king of Aram, and the servant got pretty worried. But Elisha wasn't worried and asked God to open the servants eyes (see into a higher dimension). And the Lord opened the servants eyes and he saw that the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire, numbering more than the enemy. (2 Kings 6:11-19)
In the NT we have the mysterious encounter of Jesus, Peter, James and John meeting Moses and Elijah, two "dead" guys. (Matt. 17:1-9, and in Mark 9 and Luke 9) And we can add that at the Ascension, Jesus, vanished.
Why is it so difficult to accept scripture at face value, that these events actually occurred, and that there are realms beyond the physical (fifth and sixth dimensional realms) which are just as real as our world? Why can't we see that we are just tiny little creatures living in a three-dimensional spatial world and a fourth-dimensional space-time world, in a very similar manner as the two-dimensional beings of Abbot's novel? Why can't we accept the testimony of personal experience? Why can't we accept the testimony of Jesus, that he came down from a higher realm?
Why can't we see that when we die, it's the physical body that dies, and the information that actually constitutes self is saved in a different form, and merely steps into a higher dimension?
Why not agree with Wolfson (below) that, compared to the reality and life of the higher realms, our world is but a dream from which we may awaken?
stardustpilgrim
The problem with what you're asking about is that you're treating these higher dimensions as states of being. But if they exist at all, they are physical dimensions.
The "higher dimension" you are trying to describe doesn't exist in space and time and is therefore unrelated to dimensions. It's not physical. It predates all form. It is just pure, undimensioned being. You are mixing math and theology in all the wrong ways.
As for the world being a dream from which we awaken, yes, that is an experience shared by mystics from all religions. It's one of those experiences unrelated to doctrines and dogmas. It happens to atheists, too. The "dream" you are referring to is the illusion that we are our egos, but the truth is that we are the pure, undimensioned being instead.
There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
In the 1800's Edwin Abbot wrote a book called Flatland. In it he described two-dimensional beings living in a two-dimensional world, and what it would be like for three-dimensional beings to enter their world, to them, a quite mysterious event.
Jesus said, variously interpreted, the kingdom of heaven is within you, the kingdom of heaven is in your midst. There are two characters in the OT, Enoch and Elijah, who, instead of dying, mysteriously vanished. Enoch walked with God, and was not, because God took him. Elijah went up in a chariot of fire. And we also have the case where Elisha and his servant were surrounded by the soldiers of the king of Aram, and the servant got pretty worried. But Elisha wasn't worried and asked God to open the servants eyes (see into a higher dimension). And the Lord opened the servants eyes and he saw that the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire, numbering more than the enemy. (2 Kings 6:11-19)
In the NT we have the mysterious encounter of Jesus, Peter, James and John meeting Moses and Elijah, two "dead" guys. (Matt. 17:1-9, and in Mark 9 and Luke 9) And we can add that at the Ascension, Jesus, vanished.
Why is it so difficult to accept scripture at face value, that these events actually occurred, and that there are realms beyond the physical (fifth and sixth dimensional realms) which are just as real as our world? Why can't we see that we are just tiny little creatures living in a three-dimensional spatial world and a fourth-dimensional space-time world, in a very similar manner as the two-dimensional beings of Abbot's novel? Why can't we accept the testimony of personal experience? Why can't we accept the testimony of Jesus, that he came down from a higher realm?
Why can't we see that when we die, it's the physical body that dies, and the information that actually constitutes self is saved in a different form, and merely steps into a higher dimension?
Why not agree with Wolfson (below) that, compared to the reality and life of the higher realms, our world is but a dream from which we may awaken?
stardustpilgrim
I have no trouble believing that the kingdom of God is “within”. When God reveals something to a person, only the person perceives it, not those standing near. The following passages support that belief, imo.
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)
John 14:21-23
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
If a person has an authentic revelation from God, it was meant for that person because he/she was ready and receptive but that does not mean that everyone is. If the person shares the revelation and receives negative feedback, it does not mean that the revelation is not authentic. OTOH, the person receiving the “revelation” could be mistaken about it’s authenticity.
In the case of an authentic revelation, it may be tempting for the person to shrink back from seeking God because of negative feedback. Perhaps this “obstacle” serves to strengthen the person’s faith. If the negative feedback of others stops the person from moving closer to God, perhaps it is for the best, only God knows.
I am saying this because the OP asks, “Why is it so difficult to accept scripture at face value...” and, “Why can't we see that when we die...”? Each person accepts scripture according to their spiritual state, to some it is nothing more than history, to some it makes no sense and is useless and to some it is the Word of God. God adapts His Word (Himself) to the spiritual state of the individual in an eternal effort to draw the person to Himself.
I think that all we can do is share our beliefs with each other. It is up to each of us to decide for ourselves whether to believe in God or not and, if so, how close we want to follow Him, how much we want to learn and apply to life. In a sense, it is “every man for himself” but this does not mean that we shouldn’t urge and encourage each other with what we believe to be good and true; we just need to try to act with kindness, respect, and consideration, imo.
In the NT we have the mysterious encounter of Jesus, Peter, James and John meeting Moses and Elijah, two "dead" guys. (Matt. 17:1-9, and in Mark 9 and Luke 9) And we can add that at the Ascension, Jesus, vanished.
“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27) “Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9) “By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6) “Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1) “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38) “For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13) “Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
...dimension...sch-mension! ...."Heaven" is a SPIRITUAL Kingdom / Realm !
KINGDOM:...is simply a "domain", but also a PERSON, a PLACE, a GOVERNMENT, and a Message! and a SPHERE of INFLUENCE ....ruled by a KING and therefore a benevolent monarchy.
KINGDOM of HEAVEN is a purely spiritual REALM, the omni-present and eternal dwelling place of the TRI-UNE God and His created Heavenly Hosts.
It cannot be scientifically and empirically observed.
No Man except the GOD-MAN Jesus has seen / experienced the extent of the spiritual God the Father and His Heaven. Yet the indwelling God the Holy Spirit allows us to pray and believe the promise of eternal life in heavenly bodies / souls / spirits.
KINGDOM of GOD has many faces and appears in the past / present / future.
First and foremost, the KINGDOM of GOD is a PERSON! ...the KEYS to the KINGDOM...The Narrow Gate...= Jesus of Nazareth
Luke 17: Jesus..on The Coming of the "Kingdom of God" 20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the "kingdom of God" would come, Jesus replied, "The "kingdom of God" does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the "kingdom of God" is AMONG you." (Jesus was standing with his inquisitors...Jesus was the LIVING "kingdom of God" ) 22 Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man (Jesus), but you will not see it. 23 Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man (in his day)(Second Coming) will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. (...sudden destruction of unbelievers...Sodom...Noah...examples) 30 "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed (Second Coming)... 37 "Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." (unbelievers of the Resurrection?)
Luke 22: Jesus:...the Last Supper 14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the "kingdom of God"." (sinless Jesus cruxified) 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the "kingdom of God " comes." (Resurrection) 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
Second, the KINGDOM of GOD is a spiritual SPHERE of INFLUENCE and ATTITUDE of the human spirit.
Matthew 5:3 "Blessed (happy) are the poor in (in need of) spirit, for their (happiness) is (like) the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:10 Blessed (happy) are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for (happiness) theirs is (like) the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18...Jesus: The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven ...like Little Children 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the "kingdom of heaven"?" 2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, (simple faith / trust) you will never enter the "kingdom of heaven". 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the "kingdom of heaven". 5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. ...Matthew 19:14 14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the "kingdom of heaven" belongs to such as these." (simple faith / trust)
Luke 13 - The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast: Knowledge of / FAITH in Jesus GROWS / PERMEATES 18 Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches." 20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21 It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount (~0.5 bushel) of flour until it worked all through the dough."
Third, the KINGDOM of GOD is a Message of Good News!
Matthew 10: Jesus ...sends first missionaries 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: 'The "kingdom of heaven" is near.' (Jesus is the Messiah!)
Fourth, the KINGDOM of GOD will be established as an ACTUAL government in Jerusalem at the SECOND COMING Of Jesus. His rule and realm will be for 1000 years of peace for believers.
Matthew 16 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, (SECOND Coming) and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. (Jesus' Judgment of Believers Works) 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming into his (heavenly) kingdom." (Ascension)
Fifth, the KINGDOM of GOD and Heaven will be established as the NEW Heaven and the NEW Earth for eternity.
"It cannot be scientifically and empirically observed"
And can be distinguished from the imaginary - how?
The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe. The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.
When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
"It cannot be scientifically and empirically observed"
And can be distinguished from the imaginary - how?
The imaginary is conceptual. The kingdom of heaven is experiential. That's the difference.
Questionable, unless you bastardize the meaning of the "kingdom of heaven". If you indicate it is a mental state of life-then what's the need for the second coming in christianity? Why do all those tombstones say "RIP" on them? Both issues as well as many biblical passages, contradict the implied meaning here (mental state of life vs. physical reality elsewhere in place, time, or both).
"It cannot be scientifically and empirically observed"
And can be distinguished from the imaginary - how?
The imaginary is conceptual. The kingdom of heaven is experiential. That's the difference.
Questionable, unless you bastardize the meaning of the "kingdom of heaven". If you indicate it is a mental state of life-then what's the need for the second coming in christianity?
It's not a mental state. It's the same thing as Buddha nature. It's therefore not of the mind. The second coming is just the point where the mind steps aside and lets Buddha nature in.
Why do all those tombstones say "RIP" on them? Both issues as well as many biblical passages, contradict the implied meaning here (mental state of life vs. physical reality elsewhere in place, time, or both).
Given what I said, this is moot.
There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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