May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

...truly, if atheists were honest with themselves they'd realize that actually, no, love does not really exist just because they feel it.  It's the same as theists saying they believe in God and that spirituality exists because they feel it.  Just because someone feels something doesn't make it so.

Unless it's a feeling. A feeling exists only by virtue of being felt. Atheists are in the same position as theists when it comes to love: we experience an emotion, it corresponds to what people describe as love, and we identify it as love.

Now, saying that I know love exists because I feel it isn't at all the same as a theist saying he knows God exists because he feels it. God isn't supposed to be a feeling. God is supposed to have some sort of objective reality apart from the feelings of the worshiper.

So, without love and purpose what meaning is there to life really?  Love is nothing but a scientific reaction in our bodies that has no consequence one way or the other.  An atheist killing five people (now let's see if you all are deep enough thinkers) is no different than an atheist donating time to save starving people in a foreign country.  Do you see?

Yes. I see red. That was a terrible thing to say. Who the hell are you to come in here and hurl such a vicious insult at people you don't even know? Didn't anybody teach you manners? If you plan to post here again, be aware that I will not tolerate discourtesy from anyone.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

...truly, if atheists were honest with themselves they'd realize that actually, no, love does not really exist just because they feel it.  It's the same as theists saying they believe in God and that spirituality exists because they feel it.  ...

So, without love and purpose what meaning is there to life really?  [extended straw man argument deleted]

First of all atheists do not deny either the existence or the usefulness of conceptual realities.  Many conceptual realities like love, spirituality, meaning, purpose, and even God can be understood to exist.  However, none are exempt from analysis and understanding simply because they are believed, no matter how fervently. 

That enchanted stranger across the crowded room may well be one's life fulfillment, but it wouldn't hurt to do a little investigation about attitudes, beliefs, and understandings of conceptual realities that may be important.  Belief in love at first sight may well be a recipe for disaster. 

Personally I have meaning, purpose, and spirituality as I define it in my life, which I have investigated, analyzed and thought about enough to find that they are useful for me.  None  contain any magical or supernatural components as magic and supernatural explanations have been determined to be cons in all cases I have investigated.  

Just for the record I have also investigated many of the conceptual realities identified as God by various religions and have found no benefit to me of belief.  If one of them floats your boat, it is no problem for me, as long as you don't insist I ride in your boat, or contribute to its maintenance. 

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

Just a note here.  I believe in God but believe science only enhances the evidence of God.  I believe evolution, if evidenced by science, is valid and in no way disproves God.

It certainly disproves

1.) Adam and Eve

2.) the creation story in Genesis.

3.) the Flood.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

 Actually, it only increases my faith.  Because a lot of atheists are, right about now, thinking the obligatory insults...let me remind them it is called faith, and I completely understand why atheists don't understand and think it's ridiculous (believe me, I was there once).  But to me, the universe is a fingerprint for God.

I think either God is undeniable, or else leaving it to faith greatly diminishes the God concept, especially Abrahamic God.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

But back to the thinking atheists...

...truly, if atheists were honest with themselves they'd realize that actually, no, love does not really exist just because they feel it.

Let's define love, with your own holy text, and tell me if it needs any spirituality to explain?

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 ⁴ Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. ⁵ It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. ⁶ Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. ⁷ It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

This is essentially the Rule of Reciprocity, and is found in many other religions.  It is even found in, gasp, atheists. 

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

 It's the same as theists saying they believe in God and that spirituality exists because they feel it.  Just because someone feels something doesn't make it so.

No.  Love, according to the above definition, isn't something just felt.  It is positive action/thoughts.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

Right atheists?  That's one of your main arguments against theism.  That theists feel the supernatural but it is nothing but a human creation in their mind and bodies. 

What kind of theists are we talking about?  Muslims?  Do you believe their "experiences" are valid, or are they automatically villified as "of the Devil", because of their different God?

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

A false sense of something real, but it isn't.  (and the least intelligent of the group will respond, "Because God doesn't exist and neither do fairies or the spaghetti monster."  Really atheists, is your response always just that you don't believe so that makes it truth?  You all insult theists for not thinking or being realists, well, here's your chance to think and be a realist.  

Do you believe in Allah?  Odin?  Zeus?  Why, or why not?  They are perfectly valid questions, and are thought for reflection.  They are and were very real to people.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

So, without love and purpose what meaning is there to life really?  Love is nothing but a scientific reaction in our bodies that has no consequence one way or the other.

Every action has a consequence.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

 An atheist killing five people (now let's see if you all are deep enough thinkers) is no different than an atheist donating time to save starving people in a foreign country.  Do you see?  What weight does either have, other than in this blip of time on this random planet with random animals in a random universe something happened. 

I would use those same arguments, and assumed that if God didn't exist, that life is meaningless.  You might say, "well, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter because we all die, and that's it." 

You know that isn't true, though.  Even after death, we affect people in the living world.  If you leave a legacy behind such as children, knowledge, art, discovery, etc., then your exisitence isn't meaningless or arbitrary.  It lives on and impacts others, and I find great meaning in that.

Killing others needlessly also leaves something behind torn families, a disgruntled conscience, more violence, and as such, is consequential and meaningful. 

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

 I'm sorry, but atheists truly are getting a pass on this.  They want love and understanding but don't want to explain anything other than it "just is".

I'd say that like anything worth striving for, it has to be cultivated.  You aren't born to love, just like you aren't born to speak English, born to read, born to do anything.  You receive instruction on these things, and can choose to grow accordingly.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

Sorry atheists, but the love for your family and kids doesn't have purpose.

The hell it doesn't!

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

 Come on atheists, instead of just denouncing theism, try answering some of life's tough questions.

And how exactly is that going for you theists?  Have you answered to your satisfaction why predation/parasitism exist on Earth?  Have you answered why life will eventually cease to be on Earth?

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

 Just complaining that there really is no God is no answer.  Morality to an atheist has to be, by the random chance, and no real basis for anything, other than "just being", has to be non-existent. 

Moral

Morals  refers to generally accepted customs of conduct and right living in a society, and to the individual's practice in relation to these.

Thievery, murder, adultery, fornication, bearing false witness, all have to do with human behavior.  Are you saying without that without theism, that atheists don't recognize the damage these things do to a society?

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

Only, I have a meaning in life as a consequence of love.  Unlike atheists.  Who believe in nothing, and want everyone to believe in nothing too.

Atheists should only suspend disbelief in God, because there is no evidence for him, even less for any human God concept, such as Jehovah or Allah.  Of course, I am of that opinion, but there will be varied responses.

You are saying atheists are nihilists, and that doesn't necessarily equate.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

 And they are lying to themselves if they say life has any meaning what-so-ever.  Really atheists, how can you say you are any more important in this random universe than the fourth moon from Saturn, or the black star deep in the universe?  Because you say so?  Really?  That's your answer to life's tough questions?

Life will always try to cling on.  We are life.  We seek to continue.  It really does seem that simple.

Let's be honest now, though.  If God values all life, why are the dinosaurs extinct?  He didn't care about them?  Poor little guys.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

  Atheist's montra should be, "We don't believe in anything (because there's nothing to believe in) and how dare anyone believe in something that makes meaning in their life.  We object to purpose!"   

I will speak for myself, and will object to fanaticism.  You may believe what you wish, but when that belief tries to make its way into a formal, secular environment, it will be stamped out.  There is no room for 6 day creation in the classrooms, period.  That only belongs in the pulpit, and I dare say that I wish even there Christians would have more common sense and reject such an absurd idea.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

Now, are there any real, honest, thinking atheists out there who can just own up to the fact that life has no meaning?   That life is random and inconsequential.  That we have no more purpose than space dust.  Can anyone be honest? 

Life may have arisen as random result, but that doesn't make it any more inconsequential.  In fact, if it did, I'd say such a unique thing in the Universe deserves to be preserved, at least to the extent of our ability.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

And really, why do you care that anyone believes in God anyway?  Because it annoys you?  But life has no meaning or purpose, remember?

 When it captivates the minds of others, when it is used as an excuse for intolerance, when such a narrow world view is imposed upon others, it matters.  It matters greatly.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

Space dust is equal to you and me and the random raccoon and the dust particle that just flew in my noise [sic] and the core of Venus and the black hole in   a galaxy a billion light years away.  The only thing is, though we are all equally non-important and non-purposeful, though the black hole, I would dare to assume, does not have an opinion, so why should we?  Why all the ado?  Everything, and I mean everything, has absolutely no purpose or meaning.  Right?  How can that be wrong?  Atheists can't have it both ways.  Or, are we going to keep going in this viscous circle again of atheists returning to the claim that love for family and friends or anyone or anything has any purpose and a meaning.   Forget theists, atheists need to own up to reality.

If you can't get passed such a narrow view, and realize the argumentative fallacy you've fallen into, there doesn't seem too be much to intelligently discuss.

Keep bonking atheists on the head, and affirming you are absolutely in the right.  Go ahead. Bludgeon and ye shall be bludgeoned back.

Yesterday upon the stair

I met a man who wasn’t there

He wasn’t there again today

Oh, how I wish he’d go away

When I came home last night at three

The man was waiting there for me

But when I looked around the hall

I couldn’t see him there at all!

Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!

Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door

Last night I saw upon the stair

A little man who wasn’t there

He wasn’t there again today

Oh, how I wish he’d go away

That's all you're getting from me.

May 5, 2012 -- 12:39PM, RoeDoe1111 wrote:

...do they.

If I ask a question about scien...........

{bullshit snipped}

RoeDoe

atheists [...] [would] realize that actually, no, love does not really exist just because they feel it.

Depends what you mean by love.  Are you referring to the biochemical processes that cause feelings and also are responsible for infatuation, sexual attraction, pair bonding and long-term bonding?

If so, state specifically what you think is false, and why.

If not, what are you talking about?

That theists feel the supernatural but it is nothing but a human creation in their mind and bodies.  A false sense of something real, but it isn't.

That's certainly true of some theists. 

What's true of everyone including theists is that supernatural beings exist only in imagination - that is, don't have objective existence.

If you disagree, simply give us a satisfactory demonstration of a supernatural being in reality and win the argument on the spot.

without love and purpose what meaning is there to life really?

Atheists love and atheists have purposes.  Evolution explains these things.  What's your point?

An atheist killing five people (now let's see if you all are deep enough thinkers) is no different than an atheist donating time to save starving people in a foreign country.

You should be deeply ashamed yourself.  The claim that belief in a god is necessary for morality is foolish nonsense.  The stats show atheists are at least as moral as believers.  The reason is obvious.  Humans are mammals and are also gregarious.  Hence they've evolved - have in their genetics - various moral tendencies, wholly independent of religious belief.  These include protection and nurturing of children, dislike of the person who harms, approval of fairness and reciprocity, loyalty to the group, recognition of authority and a sense of wellbeing / virtue through exercising self-denial.  The rest is upbringing, culture, education and experience.

Sorry atheists, but the love for your family and kids doesn't have purpose.

That's another foolish statement.  Of course it has a purpose.  If creatures don't survive and breed, then their genes aren't represented in the next generation, and die out.  Thus evolution selects extremely strongly for tendencies to survive, to breed and to protect and raise offspring.

just own up to the fact that life has no meaning?   That life is random and inconsequential.  That we have no more purpose than space dust.  Can anyone be honest?

You're confusing objective purpose - the universe and its entities including us have none - with subjective purpose, the only kind there is.  Subjective purpose includes love.  Love, like the rest of our feelings, is the product of evolution.

why do you care that anyone believes in God anyway?  Because it annoys you?

I hold with Live and let live - the stress falls equally on the live and on the let live.

So long as government is secular, so that all views are respected in legislation and regulation and nothing is done merely on the basis of religious prejudices, I'm happy.  So long as no evangelical knocks on my door, stuffs things in my letter box, accosts me in the street, shouts at me with a megaphone or otherwise feels entitled to interrupt my day, I'm happy.

But if you come to the Discuss Atheism board, you're looking for an argument, so what's your bitch if you get one?