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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 12:01PM #1
StashLazarus
Posts: 5

Since God created and transcends time, any change that creation provides to God was always part of God; and creation must be an unavoidable product of God’s nature. Creation is not about us or what we gain from our experiences. Creation is a reflection of God, and creation is about how God is completed.


God created a world of good and evil in order to experience emotions. A loving God would need to experience emotions like grief in order to understand love.


Satan was given power, but was not given the ability to love others. Humans were given the ability to love, but were made puny.


God established a Law that will cause all hatred and evil to be destroyed in the end.


Satan must be careful to avoid violating the Law while he brings a spirit of self-love into the world causing humans to violate the Law. By doing this Satan believes he has shown that power is the true measure of worth and love is insignificant.


This is what God had in Mind. With loving humans influenced by a self-centered spirit conditions are created for the existence of creatures capable of both good and evil. We had to be evil so we would die; we had to be good so we would feel the emotions that are caused by evil and death.


The Messiah is not a separate God, but a small piece of God that God sent into the universe of time and space. Our spirit was created by God, but the Spirit that came into the body of Christ came from the essence of God.


When Jesus was on the cross God looked away and the devil felt safe unloading his hatred on Christ. This is why Jesus was repulsed by the cross.


Jesus was perfect and overcame the Law and returned to God; but in the end Jesus will return to complete Oneness with God. God will then be a witness against Satan.


When Jesus returns to oneness with God, He must discard His flesh, and this will provide eternal life in Heaven for all the children of God. It is fair that our flesh also be discarded and our spirit judged as a separate person. Our spirit has lived up to the Law and is given a new body. This is true for all people who have the ability to love unselfishly regardless of their religious belief or non-belief.


The Bible says that we are judged by our works, but we only make it to Heaven through Christ, and God predetermined who would go to Heaven. Christians deal with these contradictions by changing some definitions in those passages that are not consistent their interpretation. Changing the words is basically saying that God made a lot of poor word choices as He wrote or inspired the writing of the Bible. The true solution to a riddle must be consistent with all the clues...without changing any definitions.


God predetermined who would be born with a spirit of love; so God did predetermine who would go to Heaven. Only through Christ can the separation of our spirit from our flesh be justified, so we only make it to Heaven through Christ even though being a Christian is not necessary. On the Day of Judgment, both the spirit and flesh will be judged by their works, so we are judged by our works but our spirit is perfect.


It makes sense that God was a harsh disciplinarian in ancient times since this encouraged Satan to be aggressive in his condemnation of humanity which ultimately led to his downfall.


The Bible says that God created evil and this is explained. It is explained how we achieve the seemingly impossible perfection that is demanded by the Law and how we make it to Heaven through Christ without a transfer of responsibility to Christ which would contradict the Bible.


Any solution to the Bible must explain why the Bible was given as a riddle. We had to be in the dark so God could experience emotions through us. As Satan learns the truth, he will be hostile and is cast from Heaven causing Armageddon. This revelation of the truth causes the end; this is why the book of the end is called the Revelation.


The Bible talks of the truth being revealed in the end, and the lifting of a veil. This means the true interpretation of the Bible is simple. We should be able to see it since God had to veil our eyes to keep us from seeing it. The clues to support this revelation are so abundant in the Bible that only Divine intervention can explain why no one has notice them.

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 7:03PM #2
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

May 2, 2012 -- 12:01PM, StashLazarus wrote:


Since God created and transcends time, any change that creation provides to God was always part of God; and creation must be an unavoidable product of God’s nature. Creation is not about us or what we gain from our experiences. Creation is a reflection of God, and creation is about how God is completed.


God created a world of good and evil in order to experience emotions. A loving God would need to experience emotions like grief in order to understand love.


Satan was given power, but was not given the ability to love others. Humans were given the ability to love, but were made puny.


God established a Law that will cause all hatred and evil to be destroyed in the end.


Satan must be careful to avoid violating the Law while he brings a spirit of self-love into the world causing humans to violate the Law. By doing this Satan believes he has shown that power is the true measure of worth and love is insignificant.


This is what God had in Mind. With loving humans influenced by a self-centered spirit conditions are created for the existence of creatures capable of both good and evil. We had to be evil so we would die; we had to be good so we would feel the emotions that are caused by evil and death.


The Messiah is not a separate God, but a small piece of God that God sent into the universe of time and space. Our spirit was created by God, but the Spirit that came into the body of Christ came from the essence of God.


When Jesus was on the cross God looked away and the devil felt safe unloading his hatred on Christ. This is why Jesus was repulsed by the cross.


Jesus was perfect and overcame the Law and returned to God; but in the end Jesus will return to complete Oneness with God. God will then be a witness against Satan.


When Jesus returns to oneness with God, He must discard His flesh, and this will provide eternal life in Heaven for all the children of God. It is fair that our flesh also be discarded and our spirit judged as a separate person. Our spirit has lived up to the Law and is given a new body. This is true for all people who have the ability to love unselfishly regardless of their religious belief or non-belief.


The Bible says that we are judged by our works, but we only make it to Heaven through Christ, and God predetermined who would go to Heaven. Christians deal with these contradictions by changing some definitions in those passages that are not consistent their interpretation. Changing the words is basically saying that God made a lot of poor word choices as He wrote or inspired the writing of the Bible. The true solution to a riddle must be consistent with all the clues...without changing any definitions.


God predetermined who would be born with a spirit of love; so God did predetermine who would go to Heaven. Only through Christ can the separation of our spirit from our flesh be justified, so we only make it to Heaven through Christ even though being a Christian is not necessary. On the Day of Judgment, both the spirit and flesh will be judged by their works, so we are judged by our works but our spirit is perfect.


It makes sense that God was a harsh disciplinarian in ancient times since this encouraged Satan to be aggressive in his condemnation of humanity which ultimately led to his downfall.


The Bible says that God created evil and this is explained. It is explained how we achieve the seemingly impossible perfection that is demanded by the Law and how we make it to Heaven through Christ without a transfer of responsibility to Christ which would contradict the Bible.


Any solution to the Bible must explain why the Bible was given as a riddle. We had to be in the dark so God could experience emotions through us. As Satan learns the truth, he will be hostile and is cast from Heaven causing Armageddon. This revelation of the truth causes the end; this is why the book of the end is called the Revelation.


The Bible talks of the truth being revealed in the end, and the lifting of a veil. This means the true interpretation of the Bible is simple. We should be able to see it since God had to veil our eyes to keep us from seeing it. The clues to support this revelation are so abundant in the Bible that only Divine intervention can explain why no one has notice them.




First, welcome, Stash  Smile--I don't believe I've seen you around here before.


Second, interesting view.  Of course, just about all of it is unorthodox and/or Christian heresy but, anyway, you say "Christians deal with these contradictions by changing some definitions in those passages that are not consistent their interpretation."


Like what?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 7:03PM #3
57
Posts: 22,194

May 2, 2012 -- 12:01PM, StashLazarus wrote:


Since God created and transcends time, any change that creation provides to God was always part of God; and creation must be an unavoidable product of God’s nature. Creation is not about us or what we gain from our experiences. Creation is a reflection of God, and creation is about how God is completed.


Do you have a biblical reference for that?  I checked out your profile and you say you are a christian...can you provide christian doctrine to support your statement?


God created a world of good and evil in order to experience emotions. A loving God would need to experience emotions like grief in order to understand love.


The world was originally created..and God called it good. Not evil. 


Satan was given power, but was not given the ability to love others. Humans were given the ability to love, but were made puny.


Satan was an angel that fell. He had the ability to love, but lost it....then again Satan does love evil.


God established a Law that will cause all hatred and evil to be destroyed in the end.


Where is that law found in scripture?  If it's there I would like to read it. 


Satan must be careful to avoid violating the Law while he brings a spirit of self-love into the world causing humans to violate the Law. By doing this Satan believes he has shown that power is the true measure of worth and love is insignificant.


Humans sin not because of Satan but because they have a sin nature.  I'm not saying Satan and his demons don't push a few buttons every now and then. 


This is what God had in Mind. With loving humans influenced by a self-centered spirit conditions are created for the existence of creatures capable of both good and evil. We had to be evil so we would die; we had to be good so we would feel the emotions that are caused by evil and death.


We had to be evil so we would die? Is that in your christian bible?


The Messiah is not a separate God, but a small piece of God that God sent into the universe of time and space. Our spirit was created by God, but the Spirit that came into the body of Christ came from the essence of God.


Jesus is God and never was not God.  Jesus is not a small piece of God.


When Jesus was on the cross God looked away and the devil felt safe unloading his hatred on Christ. This is why Jesus was repulsed by the cross.


God looked away when the believers sins were imputed to Jesus. The devil unloaded nothing on Jesus....but if you have a verse to back up your statement I'd like to see it.


Jesus was perfect and overcame the Law and returned to God; but in the end Jesus will return to complete Oneness with God. God will then be a witness against Satan.


Jesus never was not complete oneness with God.  Jesus had the kenosis..but Jesus was still God. 


When Jesus returns to oneness with God, He must discard His flesh, and this will provide eternal life in Heaven for all the children of God.


Are you sure you're a christian like your profile says?


It is fair that our flesh also be discarded and our spirit judged as a separate person. Our spirit has lived up to the Law and is given a new body. This is true for all people who have the ability to love unselfishly regardless of their religious belief or non-belief.


Unfortunately for you no one can live up to the Law.  Only Jesus could do that.


The Bible says that we are judged by our works, but we only make it to Heaven through Christ, and God predetermined who would go to Heaven.


The bible says you are saved by faith not works.....Now, on the other hand there is the Bema Seat where our works will be judged..but...it is not a salvational issue.


Christians deal with these contradictions by changing some definitions in those passages that are not consistent their interpretation. Changing the words is basically saying that God made a lot of poor word choices as He wrote or inspired the writing of the Bible. The true solution to a riddle must be consistent with all the clues...without changing any definitions.


Why didn't you present a few of your inspired verses to support your NON-christian claims?


God predetermined who would be born with a spirit of love; so God did predetermine who would go to Heaven. Only through Christ can the separation of our spirit from our flesh be justified


Where do you get this separate spirit from our flesh doctrine from?


, so we only make it to Heaven through Christ even though being a Christian is not necessary.


Doesn't your bible say in several places Jesus is the only way?  I know mine does.


On the Day of Judgment, both the spirit and flesh will be judged by their works, so we are judged by our works but our spirit is perfect.


Where does the bible say that?


It makes sense that God was a harsh disciplinarian in ancient times since this encouraged Satan to be aggressive in his condemnation of humanity which ultimately led to his downfall.


Explain ancient times. Are you one of those gap guys?


The Bible says that God created evil and this is explained.


No it doesn't.


It is explained how we achieve the seemingly impossible perfection that is demanded by the Law and how we make it to Heaven through Christ without a transfer of responsibility to Christ which would contradict the Bible.


Sooooooooooooo, when the bible says Christ became sin...it didn't really mean that?


Any solution to the Bible must explain why the Bible was given as a riddle. We had to be in the dark so God could experience emotions through us. As Satan learns the truth, he will be hostile and is cast from Heaven causing Armageddon. This revelation of the truth causes the end; this is why the book of the end is called the Revelation.


Sheeze, I'm glad were at the end of your post.


The Bible talks of the truth being revealed in the end, and the lifting of a veil. This means the true interpretation of the Bible is simple. We should be able to see it since God had to veil our eyes to keep us from seeing it. The clues to support this revelation are so abundant in the Bible that only Divine intervention can explain why no one has notice them.


if they are so abundant...why didn't you post a single one of them?





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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 7:43PM #4
Blü
Posts: 24,689

Stash


God created and transcends time


Really?  Where and when was he before time?  Without time, how was he able to change things so as to create time?


creation must be an unavoidable product of God’s nature.


This would only be true if 'God' were a synonym for physics; whereas in the popular mind they have quite different meanings.


God created a world of good and evil in order to experience emotions. A loving God would need to experience emotions like grief in order to understand love.


Do you read the OT, where he loses his temper and destroys thousands for their religious beliefs?  And drowns the world in a fit of pique?  


Satan was given power, but was not given the ability to love others.


Why do you need Satan?  You yourself observe that Yahweh says that he's the source of good and evil.


God established a Law that will cause all hatred and evil to be destroyed in the end.


What law is that, exactly?  Where is it stated in the bible?


Jesus will return to complete Oneness with God. God will then be a witness against Satan.


Satan's irrelevant.  If Yahweh's all-powerful then he must take 100% responsibility for the evil in the universe, not just the good.  The buck always stops with him.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 10:49AM #5
StashLazarus
Posts: 5

Other than the bitter atheist most of the counter points are all about reinforcing the traditions of men. With the Bible, God left us a riddle and naturally humanity down through the centuries has tried to solve this riddle. Many centuries of well respected scholars have laid out various interpretations, and while there has been a lot of disagreement, there are some things on which the great majority of scholars have agreed.


The level of agreement is viewed as evidence that a particular view is correct even if there is a passage or two in the Bible that contradict what the scholars and Church officials have agreed upon. Some of what is accepted as truth has no resemblance to the Scriptures, but people will not let go of it because it is what they’ve always been told.


It is commonly believed that Lucifer led a rebellion against God and was cast out of Heaven long ago, but Satan is not so stupid as to make war against God. Satan does not openly sin, but Christ witnessed the sin in the heart of Satan, and this revelation leads to Satan being cast from Heaven in the end.


Isaiah 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit


Isaiah puts a future tense on Satan's demise, and a past tense on the end of Satan's troublemaking which is a future event. So this passage must be describing the future. Not only the future, this passage is describing a time when Satan’s weakening the nations is in the past which would be in the end.


Ezekiel 28:15-16 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.


This verse clearly shows that Satan did not openly rebel, but was perfect in his “ways” or his actions and outward appearance until someone exposed the evil within him.


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Revelation foretells the events of the end times, and this is when Satan is cast out of Heaven.


Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Notice that at the time Satan is cast out of Heaven there is but a short time.


There is actually nothing in the Bible to support the idea that Satan was cast out of Heaven a long time ago other than this passage:


Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


But even this passage doesn’t mean that Satan has already been cast from Heaven. Christ stated that He saw Satan fall from Heaven. This does not preclude a future event since Christ was able to see the future.


John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.


“Now”, or the time of Christ there is an event that greatly affects the judgment to come, and because of this event the prince of the world SHALL BE cast out. The event is the crucifixion which redeems humanity and exposes the hatred of Satan, but the actual casting out SHALL BE in the future just like the judgment is in the future.


Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.


This passage is believed to be directed at Mary, but it was Jesus whose side was pierced, and according to this passage His soul was also pierced. This is the spiritual attack against Him by Satan when Jesus was on the cross. It was said that Christ would reveal the thoughts of many hearts. These are the hearts of Satan and his angels.


If Christ revealed the thoughts of many hearts, then it must be true that someone was hiding their thoughts. It is also said that through His death Christ will destroy Satan.


Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


If the devil were openly evil it would not be necessary for Christ to do anything to destroy Satan; Satan would already be condemned by his own actions. If Satan's hatred is hidden within his evil heart it would be necessary for that evil to be exposed.


Psalms 71:10-11 For mine enemies speak against me; and they that lay wait for my soul take counsel together, Saying, God hath forsaken him: persecute and take him; for there is none to deliver him.


Psalm 64:1-5 Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy. Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity: Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words: That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not. They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?


When Christ was on the cross, all the hatred of hell was directed at Him. Notice that Satan and his angels feared not. This is because God had looked away. But Christ was able to communicate with spirits, which we are not able to see. Christ demonstrated His ability to discern and communicate with unseen spirits on many occasions before He was crucified. Christ felt and witnessed the hatred of Satan when He was on the cross. This is why Christ seemed to fear the cross.


Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Christ witnessed the evil of Satan, and this is why He is called the faithful witness.


John 15:22-25 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


“They have no cloke for their sin” is reference to the fact that the evil of Satan and his angels is no longer hidden but has been witnessed by Christ. “Their Law” is reference to the fact that Satan has acknowledged and supported the Law by his condemnation of humanity. Christ often stated that we are judged as we judge others, so the devil is condemned by his own words.


Psalms 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.


Psalms 119:161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.


The phrase, “hated me without a cause” was used on several occasions by King David. The devil condemns humans and he demonstrates his hatred of humanity, but his hatred of humanity is hatred with a cause. Satan accuses and condemns humans for their sins, which is hatred with a cause just as it is perfectly reasonable for us to denounce a murderer. Christ was perfect and without sin. The hatred directed at Christ by Satan was hatred without a cause. It was not the just condemnation of sin; it was pure hatred and evil and Satan has no excuse for it. Now Satan is revealed to have violated the Law by hating God.


Psalms 21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.


Christ is sometimes called the right hand of God since He goes to the right hand of God. This verse clearly says that Christ “finds out” those who hate God.


Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Did you ever notice the word “until”? Amazing no one ever noticed that word. It seems that Christ will not be at the right hand of God forever. His enemies are made His footstool *because* he leaves the right hand of God and returns to oneness with God.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:27PM #6
57
Posts: 22,194

Stash,


Either you address the responses and replies...or go away.


I spent a lot of time addressing you and I'm not going to waste anymore of  my time addressing your cult concepts.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:47PM #7
Blü
Posts: 24,689

Stash


Isaiah 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


In Isaiah 14 the passage of which your quote forms part is introduced with the words -


You shall take up this taunt against the king of Babylon.


So the passage is ridicule addressed to the king of Babylon who has recently been overthrown.


That's to say, it couldn't be plainer that the KJV's 'Lucifer' is NOT Satan.


All you had to do was read it.




And then you dodge all the points in my post.


If you're just here to lecture and not to listen, then you'll have to present material of a vastly higher standard of research and insight than anything you've shown so far.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 5:58PM #8
Ed.W
Posts: 9,423

May 3, 2012 -- 10:49AM, StashLazarus wrote:


Other than the bitter atheist




I give Stash a lot of credit for nailing Blu inside of 2 posts.  I'd give up Atheism if it made me that bitter.

May 3, 2012 -- 5:47PM, Blü wrote:



If you're just here to lecture and not to listen,




Blu's use of irony is indeed priceless.



Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 6:14PM #9
Blü
Posts: 24,689

Oh Ed!


You're such a bitter old Christian!


Poor feller.  If you can't find happiness in Christianity and you refuse atheism, why not cheer yourself up with Buddhism?

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:10PM #10
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,779

May 3, 2012 -- 6:14PM, Blü wrote:


Oh Ed!


You're such a bitter old Christian!


Poor feller.  If you can't find happiness in Christianity and you refuse atheism, why not cheer yourself up with Buddhism?




Or another belief system outside the Abrahamic. Many Pagans are quite happy.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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