May 3, 2012 -- 5:27PM, 57 wrote:

Stash,

Either you address the responses and replies...or go away.

I spent a lot of time addressing you and I'm not going to waste anymore of  my time addressing your cult concepts.

I’ve demonstrated that the common view of Satan is wrong, and that Christ witnessed the hatred of Satan and this revelation will lead to the end of the world. This has profound implication and it supports all the other pieces of the puzzle I’ve laid out. All the other pieces of the puzzle are supported by the Bible as well. I could demonstrate this, but what’s the point? If I show you all the trees you still won’t be able to see the forest.

Stash

Like Led Zeppelin said, sometimes words have two meanings.

If you can't make reasoned replies to reasoned points, there's no point to conversing.

StashLazarus:  Since God created and transcends time

Hi!  Have you noticed we are but temporary flashes in the pan and we feel we have the skills to assess eternity?

Think about it:  if you are a fruit fly and only live a day or so, how can you say you know what living a week, a month, or a year is like?

God Himself mocks Job re: knowledge of Creation.  I consider this a hint of just how seriously we should take Genesis.

God created a world of good and evil in order to experience emotions.

Interesting (and certainly Christianity loves to say that's part of the reason Jesus' plot happened).  However, when Yahweh is throwing His little "You can't handle the truth" speech to the divine counsel (of which He was PART OF A PANTHEON, NOT THE SOLE MEMBER), He seems pretty mad (or at least, indignant).  I concede I'm not clear on the timeline, but wouldn't we need to see more of God's pre-Earth past before we judge Him to "need" emotions?

We had to be evil so we would die

Can a tomato be evil?  'Cause, you know, it can die.

When Jesus was on the cross God looked away and the devil felt safe unloading his hatred on Christ.

I didn't see Satan in that story.  I saw a bunch of Roman executioners, though.

Jesus was perfect

Ah, you haven't been all over this board, yet.

It is fair that our flesh also be discarded and our spirit judged as a separate person.

I'm reading some about gnosticism.  I can admire some of the general gists, but I am afraid I just find anti-material stuff quite silly.

The Bible says that we are judged by our works, but we only make it to Heaven through Christ, and God predetermined who would go to Heaven.

When Jesus was speaking to the crowds, He mentions in parable (admittedly, not a literal story) a poor guy who dies and goes to Heaven.  Now, I'm assuming since the future tense isn't used, Jesus hasn't died yet by the time the story takes place.  How is the poor guy in Heaven, then?

Changing the words is basically saying that God made a lot of poor word choices as He wrote or inspired the writing of the Bible.

Where does God say He wrote it?  All I see are the names of human authors, both real and imagined.

The true solution to a riddle must be consistent with all the clues...without changing any definitions.

Or acknowledge there isn't any real riddle.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know.

It makes sense that God was a harsh disciplinarian in ancient times since this encouraged Satan to be aggressive in his condemnation of humanity which ultimately led to his downfall.

This makes NO sense.  If Satan is being punished for not liking humanity, God could simply not encourage evil.  Boom!  Problem solved.

As Satan learns the truth, he will be hostile and is cast from Heaven causing Armageddon.

You know, Satan is called this Father of Lies thing, but funnily enough, for the life of me I can't think of any instance where Satan actually does that.  In any scene where he actually DOES show up (no, not in A&E's story), he's manipulating, "tempting" as it were, people with THEIR OWN Freudian bullcrap.  NEVER does he tell a falsehood.  So, I'm curious where this "Father of Lies" thing came about, since it's just not there.

The clues to support this revelation are so abundant in the Bible that only Divine intervention can explain why no one has notice them.

Or it could mean basic reading comprehension skills have to be taught and aren't intrinsic to humanity.

Blu:  Really?  Where and when was he before time?  Without time, how was he able to change things so as to create time?

The only thing I can think of is that God was present before the celestial bodies started moving, so was sorta "before time", as you need planets to rotate to get days and you need planets to revolve to get years and such.  *shrugs*

This would only be true if 'God' were a synonym for physics

I can be fine with that.

What law is that, exactly?  Where is it stated in the bible?

I'm thinking it's implied, what with everyone all doing the Care Bear Stare after the Judgement or whatever.  I mean, if suffering and evil are conquered, that somehow means people are suddenly following the rules, right?  Of course, how God hasn't been able to force universal compliance with rules so far and yet somehow does after grounding some demons in their room, I'm not certain.

StashLazarus:  Other than the bitter atheist

Meh, don't be so petty.  He's probably one of the most rational people on here.  He's also not the kind of atheist to go on endlessly with multiple threads about how we're all stupid about every day.  So, cut him some slack.

most of the counter points are all about reinforcing the traditions of men.

With all due respect, your opinions come from men's traditions as well.

Revelation foretells the events of the end times, and this is when Satan is cast out of Heaven.

The book takes place sometime during the Roman Empire.  The world hasn't ended.  Oh well.

This passage is believed to be directed at Mary

Possibly because it flat out says "Simeon told MARY".

but it was Jesus whose side was pierced

But Simeon doesn't mention a side.  He mentions a soul.  In other words, Mary's gonna be heartbroken over the events.

It is also said that through His death Christ will destroy Satan.

How has that worked out so far?

Christ demonstrated His ability to discern and communicate with unseen spirits on many occasions before He was crucified. Christ felt and witnessed the hatred of Satan when He was on the cross.

I'm not sure this conclusion follows from R1:5.

The phrase, “hated me without a cause” was used on several occasions by King David.

And David would then be full of crap.  He was hated because he was a corrupt asshole who belonged on Jerry Springer.

Christ was perfect and without sin.

Only if you close the NT and refuse to read it.  We have some threads on this.

I’ve demonstrated that the common view of Satan is wrong, and that Christ witnessed the hatred of Satan and this revelation will lead to the end of the world.

Considering we only HEAR of what Satan has supposedly done, since any scene where he actually APPEARS has him being, at most, a jerk who dares to call people out on their flaws, I bet I can demonstrate a better conclusion:  that Christianity lied about how evil Satan was (he was just God's employee, by Job's account) to distract from its own issues.  I say Jesus/God need(s) to put the money where the mouth is:  if forgiveness is divine, then why hasn't the Big Bad been forgiven already?

If I show you all the trees you still won’t be able to see the forest.

While I think you've made the interesting point here and there, the fact remains you haven't shown us a forest.  Instead, you've shown us a tree lot.

May 4, 2012 -- 10:24PM, Blü wrote:

Stash

You're still just blathering on.  Please give reasoned responses to the points I made -

1.  Where and when was Yahweh before he made time?

The Godhead....Father, Son and Holy Ghost..were outside of time. 

2.  Without time, how was he able to change things so as to create time?

The Word spoke it into existance.

3.  Why do you bother with Satan?  An omnipotent god is 100% responsible for evil as well as good.

Why would that be true?

4.  The OT doesn't portray a loving god.  Nor does the NT - why would Yahweh send his son to be tortured to death when with a snap of his omnipotent fingers he can achieve any relationship with humans that he wants?

The OT and NT present a just God.  I bet you call all judges...not loving.

5.  You said God established a Law that will cause all hatred and evil to be destroyed in the end.  State the bible reference where this is set out.

I too would like to see that reference...or atleast a line of theology.  Keep in mind I do believe hatred and evil will be destroyed...but not by a law but rather by Jesus Christ.

And I pointed out to you that Isaiah 14 refers expressly and out loud to the king of Babylon and not to Satan.

I didn't know the king of Babylon was consider the "star of the morning, son of the dawn".  How could a person who was on earth...be cut down to earth?  Riddle me that Batman. 

Then again, just who is the king of Babylon?  What is Babylon? The Babylon of revelation?

May 5, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Blü wrote:

57

The Godhead....Father, Son and Holy Ghost..were outside of time.

I'd have thought 'outside of time' was a synonym for 'non-existence'.  Where is 'outside of time' exactly, and how do you know?

The bible speaks of it. 

2nd Tim 1:9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

The Word spoke it into existance.

No, in the absence of time nothing can change, nothing can move.  Hence my question.  Describe to me how change can occur in the absence of time.

So much for the Big Bang then. 

Why would that be true?

Because all power is with the omnipotent god so he MUST be the only source of evil.  It can't exist, either in particular or in general, except according to his all-powerful will.

It can exist where God is absent...pulled back from 

The OT and NT present a just God.  I bet you call all judges...not loving.

I see nothing just about killing all breathing creatures bar a boatload just because some humans annoyed him.  Nor do I see justice in the slaughter of women and children who haven't done anything worse than anyone else.  He never speaks against slavery.  And so much more.

God would be just to wipe everyone out.  It is only because of His love, grace and mercy we can breath....and you find great joy in mocking such a just God.

I didn't know the king of Babylon was consider the "star of the morning, son of the dawn".

As the author of Isaiah plainly states, it's a taunt against the king of Babylon.  There he was, vaunting himself, thinking he was as visible and significant as the morning star, but nah, down he comes tumbling.  So the taunt is, That'll teach you to think you're so great!

This is obviously a reference to Satan because of what Jesus said in Luke 10:18 and because of the inappropriateness of the expression of Isaiah  (14:13-14) on the lips of any but Satan. (1st Tim 3:6) and weaken the nations as expressed in Rev 20:3.  

Reading that verse alone might not be 100% confirmation for some but when the rest of the bible is used it becomes quite clear it is a reference to Satan.