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3 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 10:45AM #51
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,772

May 13, 2012 -- 9:48AM, JRoadrunner wrote:


May 13, 2012 -- 5:36AM, Ibn wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 10:09PM, ffb wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 6:53AM, Ibn wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 8:54AM, ffb wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Ibn wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 4:40PM, JAstor wrote:


Just a note: I began on BNET in 2001 by going to the Islam board and asking them to share their beliefs about Isaac and Ishmael. The thread went on for more than 2,000 posts (they don't allow that any longer). The main thing I learned from that experience was that the Quran ignored two crucial chapters Genesis (21 and 22), which clearly identified Isaac as the seed of Abraham (i.e. the heir to his spiritual heritage) and the one God told Abraham to bring up on an altar ("your son, your only son, the one whom you love, Isaac").


Abraham had not asked for heir to his "spiritual heritage" but heir to his household:


15:2


Abram said, 'O Lord, God, what will you give me if I remain childless? The heir to my household will be Damascus Eliezer.'


15:3


Abram continued, 'You have given me no children. A member of my household will inherit what is mine.'


15:4


Suddenly God's word came to him: 'That one will not be your heir! One born from your own body will inherit what is yours.'


Where does it say in the Torah that Isaac was Abraham’s “spiritual heritage”?




try gen 17:19 through 17:21


 


19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.


20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.


21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."


 


the covenant, the brit, is the spiritual heritage. the issue of "heir to the household" would already have been resolved by the birth of ishmael. Thus, clearly, that can;t be the focus here.



What is then "the covenant" that was to be established with Isaac and how it was to be everlasting?





this should answer the nature of the covenant


gen 17:1-8

1. And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and God appeared to Abram, and He said to him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me and be perfect.   א. וַיְהִי אַבְרָם בֶּן תִּשְׁעִים שָׁנָה וְתֵשַׁע שָׁנִים וַיֵּרָא יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶל אַבְרָם וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו אֲנִי אֵל שַׁדַּי הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי וֶהְיֵה תָמִים:
2. And I will place My covenant between Me and between you, and I will multiply you very greatly."   ב. וְאֶתְּנָה בְרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וְאַרְבֶּה אוֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד:
3. And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying,   ג. וַיִּפֹּל אַבְרָם עַל פָּנָיו וַיְדַבֵּר אִתּוֹ אֱ־לֹהִים לֵאמֹר:
4. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations.   ד. אֲנִי הִנֵּה בְרִיתִי אִתָּךְ וְהָיִיתָ לְאַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם:
5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.   ה. וְלֹא יִקָּרֵא עוֹד אֶת שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָם וְהָיָה שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָהָם כִּי אַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם נְתַתִּיךָ:
6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you.   ו. וְהִפְרֵתִי אֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְגוֹיִם וּמְלָכִים מִמְּךָ יֵצֵאוּ:
7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you.   ז. וַהֲקִמֹתִי אֶת בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָם לִבְרִית עוֹלָם לִהְיוֹת לְךָ לֵאלֹהִים וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ:
8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."   ח. וְנָתַתִּי לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֵת אֶרֶץ מְגֻרֶיךָ אֵת כָּל אֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן לַאֲחֻזַּת עוֹלָם וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵאלֹהִים:

 Thank you ffb for the clarification.


The covenant with Abram (Genesis 15) is reconfirmed in Genesis 17 and is signed and sealed with the blood of Abraham and his son Ishmael. Therefore, it is Ishmael who is the subject of the covenant with Abraham. It was signed and sealed well before even the news of Isaac being born was given to Abraham and Sarah. Of course there was to be another covenant with Isaac later on just as there was to be yet another covenant (Sinai covenant ) for the generations to come.


Thanks once again for clarifying which covenant to concentrate on in this topic.



It's to disabuse you of that misconception, that Genesis 21 comes along and says explicitly:


21:12 But God said to Abraham, 'Do not be troubled because of the boy [Ishmael] and your slave [Hagar, whom you are to banish]. Do everything that Sarah tells you. It is through Isaac that offspring [seed] will be considered yours.


In other words, the seed mentioned in the covenant is Isaac, not Ishmael. 


(It's that pesky chapter 21 in Genesis that keeps getting in the way of Islam's claims.)





JRoadrunner


There is also the pesky problem that there is absolutely no connection between Ishmael and Mohammed or any other known Muslim. Even if the covenant were somehow to be construed to run through Ishmael IT DOES NOT get to Mohammed.  If the covenant had run through Ishmael or also through Ishmael, Mohammed and his fathers would have been Jewish or at least monotheists. They were neither.  There is no connection between Mohammed and Abraham other than by adoption. Islam is an "Abrahamic faith" by choice (their choice) not by descent.  


Besides being theologically incorrect, the Muslim argument is moot.  

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3 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 11:34AM #52
ffb
Posts: 2,259

May 13, 2012 -- 5:36AM, Ibn wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 10:09PM, ffb wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 6:53AM, Ibn wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 8:54AM, ffb wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Ibn wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 4:40PM, JAstor wrote:


Just a note: I began on BNET in 2001 by going to the Islam board and asking them to share their beliefs about Isaac and Ishmael. The thread went on for more than 2,000 posts (they don't allow that any longer). The main thing I learned from that experience was that the Quran ignored two crucial chapters Genesis (21 and 22), which clearly identified Isaac as the seed of Abraham (i.e. the heir to his spiritual heritage) and the one God told Abraham to bring up on an altar ("your son, your only son, the one whom you love, Isaac").


Abraham had not asked for heir to his "spiritual heritage" but heir to his household:


15:2


Abram said, 'O Lord, God, what will you give me if I remain childless? The heir to my household will be Damascus Eliezer.'


15:3


Abram continued, 'You have given me no children. A member of my household will inherit what is mine.'


15:4


Suddenly God's word came to him: 'That one will not be your heir! One born from your own body will inherit what is yours.'


Where does it say in the Torah that Isaac was Abraham’s “spiritual heritage”?




try gen 17:19 through 17:21


 


19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.


20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.


21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."


 


the covenant, the brit, is the spiritual heritage. the issue of "heir to the household" would already have been resolved by the birth of ishmael. Thus, clearly, that can;t be the focus here.



What is then "the covenant" that was to be established with Isaac and how it was to be everlasting?





this should answer the nature of the covenant


gen 17:1-8

1. And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and God appeared to Abram, and He said to him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me and be perfect.   א. וַיְהִי אַבְרָם בֶּן תִּשְׁעִים שָׁנָה וְתֵשַׁע שָׁנִים וַיֵּרָא יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶל אַבְרָם וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו אֲנִי אֵל שַׁדַּי הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי וֶהְיֵה תָמִים:
2. And I will place My covenant between Me and between you, and I will multiply you very greatly."   ב. וְאֶתְּנָה בְרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וְאַרְבֶּה אוֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד:
3. And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying,   ג. וַיִּפֹּל אַבְרָם עַל פָּנָיו וַיְדַבֵּר אִתּוֹ אֱ־לֹהִים לֵאמֹר:
4. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations.   ד. אֲנִי הִנֵּה בְרִיתִי אִתָּךְ וְהָיִיתָ לְאַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם:
5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.   ה. וְלֹא יִקָּרֵא עוֹד אֶת שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָם וְהָיָה שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָהָם כִּי אַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם נְתַתִּיךָ:
6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you.   ו. וְהִפְרֵתִי אֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְגוֹיִם וּמְלָכִים מִמְּךָ יֵצֵאוּ:
7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you.   ז. וַהֲקִמֹתִי אֶת בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָם לִבְרִית עוֹלָם לִהְיוֹת לְךָ לֵאלֹהִים וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ:
8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."   ח. וְנָתַתִּי לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֵת אֶרֶץ מְגֻרֶיךָ אֵת כָּל אֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן לַאֲחֻזַּת עוֹלָם וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵאלֹהִים:


Thank you ffb for the clarification.


The covenant with Abram (Genesis 15) is reconfirmed in Genesis 17 and is signed and sealed with the blood of Abraham and his son Ishmael. Therefore, it is Ishmael who is the subject of the covenant with Abraham. It was signed and sealed well before even the news of Isaac being born was given to Abraham and Sarah. Of course there was to be another covenant with Isaac later on just as there was to be yet another covenant (Sinai covenant ) for the generations to come.


Thanks once again for clarifying which covenant to concentrate on in this topic.




-----------------------------------------------------------------


 


I guess I just don'tdsee that. While there is an explicit prophecy/covenant made with Ishmael regarding his heading up great nations, the spiritual section is clearly connected to Isaac. As shown, the seed connected to the spiritual heritage is linked to Isaac, unless you think that 17:19-21 is a falsehood.


 

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3 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 7:06PM #53
visio
Posts: 3,542

May 13, 2012 -- 11:34AM, ffb wrote:


I guess I just don'tdsee that. While there is an explicit prophecy/covenant made with Ishmael regarding his heading up great nations, the spiritual section is clearly connected to Isaac. As shown, the seed connected to the spiritual heritage is linked to Isaac, unless you think that 17:19-21 is a falsehood.




Hi ffb, welcome to Judaism Board.


I am not too sure what you mean by the spiritual section connectivity between Isaac and. Ismael.   If you are referring to the root connectivity of their inherited aspect/constirtuiton of spirit/mind (i.e. the seed, root) and by Exodus 20 : 5, they were different.  They, as a whole person co-existed during the same time period.  And no seed (either of soul and spirit/mind) would take existence in two bodies.   In term of soul and spirit/mind the seed inherited by both, Ismael and Isaac would have come from a within four generations before them.  And there were/are factors of their mothers involved in its determination.   And it is quite apparent that Ismael (both soul and spirit/mind) was functioned pretty independently from that of Abraham. Abraham had confidence that Ismael, his son, physical bodily, had a better seed than his own.  So much so that he courageously left him with his mother, Hagar, in an uninhabitted and desolated Makkah for their survival (of course under God/ALLAHswt's Command).   While Isaac's ones, Abraham needed to shepherd them, until he passed out.

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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 1:37AM #54
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,931

May 13, 2012 -- 7:06PM, visio wrote:


Hi ffb, welcome to Judaism Board.


I am not too sure what you mean by the spiritual section connectivity between Isaac and. Ismael.   If you are referring to the root connectivity of their inherited aspect/constirtuiton of spirit/mind (i.e. the seed, root) and by Exodus 20 : 5, they were different.  




BS"D


Welcome Visio to the JD board.  ffb is a longtime member.  The connection ffb is referring to is that which is literally enumerated in the text.  The spiritual connectivity is the continuous ethnic identity of the Jewish people from Abraham through Isaac through Jacob as explicitly statetd in the text.  It is a shared experience continuous from generation to generation - that shared experience being an ongoing dialog as individuals and as a people directly with the Creator. 


There is no mention of any connectivity through Ishmael mentioned in the text except for another people - that being largely the Arab people now mostly under the oppression (cultural and tribal obliteration) of Islam.  Prior to Islam the Arab peoples encompassed many cultures and empires.  Now there are none left except for modern States which worship money more than if not to the exclusion of Allah.

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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 7:14AM #55
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

May 13, 2012 -- 5:36AM, Ibn wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 10:09PM, ffb wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 6:53AM, Ibn wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 8:54AM, ffb wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Ibn wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 4:40PM, JAstor wrote:


Just a note: I began on BNET in 2001 by going to the Islam board and asking them to share their beliefs about Isaac and Ishmael. The thread went on for more than 2,000 posts (they don't allow that any longer). The main thing I learned from that experience was that the Quran ignored two crucial chapters Genesis (21 and 22), which clearly identified Isaac as the seed of Abraham (i.e. the heir to his spiritual heritage) and the one God told Abraham to bring up on an altar ("your son, your only son, the one whom you love, Isaac").


Abraham had not asked for heir to his "spiritual heritage" but heir to his household:


15:2


Abram said, 'O Lord, God, what will you give me if I remain childless? The heir to my household will be Damascus Eliezer.'


15:3


Abram continued, 'You have given me no children. A member of my household will inherit what is mine.'


15:4


Suddenly God's word came to him: 'That one will not be your heir! One born from your own body will inherit what is yours.'


Where does it say in the Torah that Isaac was Abraham’s “spiritual heritage”?




try gen 17:19 through 17:21


 


19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.


20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.


21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."


 


the covenant, the brit, is the spiritual heritage. the issue of "heir to the household" would already have been resolved by the birth of ishmael. Thus, clearly, that can;t be the focus here.



What is then "the covenant" that was to be established with Isaac and how it was to be everlasting?





this should answer the nature of the covenant


gen 17:1-8

1. And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and God appeared to Abram, and He said to him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me and be perfect.   א. וַיְהִי אַבְרָם בֶּן תִּשְׁעִים שָׁנָה וְתֵשַׁע שָׁנִים וַיֵּרָא יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶל אַבְרָם וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו אֲנִי אֵל שַׁדַּי הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי וֶהְיֵה תָמִים:
2. And I will place My covenant between Me and between you, and I will multiply you very greatly."   ב. וְאֶתְּנָה בְרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וְאַרְבֶּה אוֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד:
3. And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying,   ג. וַיִּפֹּל אַבְרָם עַל פָּנָיו וַיְדַבֵּר אִתּוֹ אֱ־לֹהִים לֵאמֹר:
4. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations.   ד. אֲנִי הִנֵּה בְרִיתִי אִתָּךְ וְהָיִיתָ לְאַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם:
5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.   ה. וְלֹא יִקָּרֵא עוֹד אֶת שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָם וְהָיָה שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָהָם כִּי אַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם נְתַתִּיךָ:
6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you.   ו. וְהִפְרֵתִי אֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְגוֹיִם וּמְלָכִים מִמְּךָ יֵצֵאוּ:
7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you.   ז. וַהֲקִמֹתִי אֶת בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָם לִבְרִית עוֹלָם לִהְיוֹת לְךָ לֵאלֹהִים וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ:
8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."   ח. וְנָתַתִּי לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֵת אֶרֶץ מְגֻרֶיךָ אֵת כָּל אֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן לַאֲחֻזַּת עוֹלָם וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵאלֹהִים:


Thank you ffb for the clarification.


The covenant with Abram (Genesis 15) is reconfirmed in Genesis 17 and is signed and sealed with the blood of Abraham and his son Ishmael. Therefore, it is Ishmael who is the subject of the covenant with Abraham. It was signed and sealed well before even the news of Isaac being born was given to Abraham and Sarah. Of course there was to be another covenant with Isaac later on just as there was to be yet another covenant (Sinai covenant ) for the generations to come.


Thanks once again for clarifying which covenant to concentrate on in this topic.




-----------------------------------------------------------------


 


May 13, 2012 -- 11:34AM, ffb wrote:

I guess I just don'tdsee that. While there is an explicit prophecy/covenant made with Ishmael regarding his heading up great nations, the spiritual section is clearly connected to Isaac. As shown, the seed connected to the spiritual heritage is linked to Isaac, unless you think that 17:19-21 is a falsehood.


Of course I agree with you that you don't see that!


In Genesis 17, the covenant is not made with Isaac but is made with Abraham. It is covenant of circumcision, signed and sealed with the blood of both Abraham and Ishmael. As for Isaac in Genesis 17, there is to be another covenant made with Isaac and "his generations". This promise of "covenant with Isaac" was going to be established AFTER the birth of Isaac rather than BEFORE his birth.


Now, if covenant with Abraham has already been established and Isaac was to be born next year and was going to have "generations", and Abraham was well aware of this promise (in Genesis 17), how could G-d ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac before he had even got married (and could have those generations)?      

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 9:06AM #56
ffb
Posts: 2,259

"The covenant with Abram (Genesis 15) is reconfirmed in Genesis 17 and is signed and sealed with the blood of Abraham and his son Ishmael. Therefore, it is Ishmael who is the subject of the covenant with Abraham. It was signed and sealed well before even the news of Isaac being born was given to Abraham and Sarah. Of course there was to be another covenant with Isaac later on just as there was to be yet another covenant (Sinai covenant ) for the generations to come."


I think what you have here is the application of a particular logical system which is at odds with other logical conclusions so I will spell out the events and what conclusions I draw.


Gen 15 establishes a covenant (stars of the heaven, inheritance of the land, offspring oppressed in a land not their own, leave with great wealth). At this point, Abe has no kids.


Gen 16 has the prophecy of Ishmael's birth (a promise of numbers and "wild ass of a man") is made to Hagar, not to Abe. No mention of a covenant.


Gen 17 reaffirmation of the covenant of gen 15, and the promise that the covenant will pass to the offspring -- Ishmael who was alive is not mentioned. If the text intended this to go through him, it could have said "through Ishmael". Verse 6 says that from Abe nations will (future tense) spring. Not "already sprang." The covenant is ratified through circumcision which is demanded on the 8th day. Ishmael is already 13 so he can't be the "generations" intended. (Abe himself is told to circumcise himself at his current age, verse 11 and the covenant will stay through him, but for his descendants, the 8th day is neceesary, thus invalidating Ishmael). Ishmael must have been circumcised via verse 10, but the covenant goes through the generations who follow the 8th day rule. Isaac was circumcised at 8 days (gen 21:4)


Gen 17:15 prophesies the birth of Isaac and (verse 19) god says he will fulfill the covenant with him (not "establish" but fulfill -- 2 different Hebrew words). Verse 20 mentions Ishmael but not a covenant, just a blessing of 12 princes and a great nation. Verse 21 again says that the covenant will be CONTINUED (not begun) through Isaac.


Gen 21 has god ratify the idea that Isaac is the primary son (verse 12). Ishmael, again, is promised a great nation, but "through Isaac will offspring be considered yours".


Then Gen 22 says (verse 2) "take your son, your only, the one you love, Isaac." Isaac's position as unique and connected to Abe and god in a special way is underscored.


The covenant established with Abraham in terms of his spirituality is continued explicitly through Isaac. Ishmael is never mentioned when there are discussions of covenant.

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3 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 5:36AM #57
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

"The covenant with Abram (Genesis 15) is reconfirmed in Genesis 17 and is signed and sealed with the blood of Abraham and his son Ishmael. Therefore, it is Ishmael who is the subject of the covenant with Abraham. It was signed and sealed well before even the news of Isaac being born was given to Abraham and Sarah. Of course there was to be another covenant with Isaac later on just as there was to be yet another covenant (Sinai covenant ) for the generations to come."


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

I think what you have here is the application of a particular logical system which is at odds with other logical conclusions so I will spell out the events and what conclusions I draw.


Gen 15 establishes a covenant (stars of the heaven, inheritance of the land, offspring oppressed in a land not their own, leave with great wealth). At this point, Abe has no kids.


All that requires the son to live, be married and have children. Sacrificing the son as a boy could not have fulfilled all that unless sacrificing the same son sounds like a charade with Abe knowing very well that he will not sacrifice his son but merely pretend to be going through it.


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Gen 16 has the prophecy of Ishmael's birth (a promise of numbers and "wild ass of a man") is made to Hagar, not to Abe. No mention of a covenant.


The numbers can't apply to the son who was to be sacrificed. The numbers apply to one son and the sacrifice to the other. Both cannot apply to the same son.


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Gen 17 reaffirmation of the covenant of gen 15, and the promise that the covenant will pass to the offspring -- Ishmael who was alive is not mentioned.


Covenant can pass through to offspring of Isaac only if he was certain to live rather than be sacrificed as a boy unless the sacrifice event did not apply to Isaac. 


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

If the text intended this to go through him, it could have said "through Ishmael".


Ishmael is clearly stated in the Torah to be Abe's son, the only son at any one time. It did not need to clarify the name if he was the only son at any one time.


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Verse 6 says that from Abe nations will (future tense) spring. Not "already sprang."


Nations can spring from Abraham through Isaac only if he was certain to live rather than be subject of sacrifice as a boy unless he was not the subject of the sacrifice event.


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

The covenant is ratified through circumcision which is demanded on the 8th day. Ishmael is already 13 so he can't be the "generations" intended. (Abe himself is told to circumcise himself at his current age, verse 11 and the covenant will stay through him, but for his descendants, the 8th day is neceesary, thus invalidating Ishmael).


Why circumcise Ishmael at 13 years  if it was to be on the 8th day? Why should Abraham circumcise himself at 99? Why not wait till Isaac is born then the covenant of circumcision begins if it was meant to begin with Isaac? 


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Ishmael must have been circumcised via verse 10, but the covenant goes through the generations who follow the 8th day rule. Isaac was circumcised at 8 days (gen 21:4)


What was the point of sacrificing Isaac if generations after him were to follow the covenant of circumcision? There were going to be no generations of Isaac if he really was to be the subject of sacrifice unless all knew (including Abraham) that Isaac is never going to be sacrificed but will live for those generations to come from him.


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Gen 17:15 prophesies the birth of Isaac and (verse 19) god says he will fulfill the covenant with him (not "establish" but fulfill -- 2 different Hebrew words).


The Covenant of circumcision can only be fulfilled through Isaac and his generations if he was to live and never be the subject of sacrifice.  


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Verse 20 mentions Ishmael but not a covenant, just a blessing of 12 princes and a great nation. Verse 21 again says that the covenant will be CONTINUED (not begun) through Isaac.


It could not CONTINUE through Isaac and his generations (to come) if he was the subject of the sacrifice unless the subject of the sacrifice was not Isaac but Ishmael. Either Isaac was the subject of sacrifice and Ishmael the subject of the covenant or Ishmael the subject of the sacrifice and Isaac the subject of the covenant. It makes no sense for the same son to be promised generations and then asked to be sacrificed as a boy.


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Gen 21 has god ratify the idea that Isaac is the primary son (verse 12).


What does "primary son" mean? What is Hebrew for "primary son"? Or is it just an idea and ratification imagined? 


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Ishmael, again, is promised a great nation, but "through Isaac will offspring be considered yours".


How can Isaac be sacrificed if generations were to come from Isaac unless the promise was made after the sacrifice event (which was not after but before).


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

Then Gen 22 says (verse 2) "take your son, your only, the one you love, Isaac." Isaac's position as unique and connected to Abe and god in a special way is underscored.


Abraham had loved Ishmael too. He did not love only Isaac.


May 14, 2012 -- 9:06AM, ffb wrote:

The covenant established with Abraham in terms of his spirituality is continued explicitly through Isaac. Ishmael is never mentioned when there are discussions of covenant.


Abraham's spirituality continued through both Ishmael and Isaac. The covenant of circumcision continued through Ishmael and Isaac. Covenant of circumcision begins with Ishmael being circumcised before Isaac was even born.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 7:53AM #58
ffb
Posts: 2,259

"Sacrificing the son as a boy could not have fulfilled all that unless sacrificing the same son sounds like a charade with Abe knowing very well that he will not sacrifice his son but merely pretend to be going through it."


No, that's why it was a test. God promised a son and delivered and then asked for that son to be raised as a sacrifice. Abe had to have faith that this would all work out as promised. The text is "god tested Aberaham" not "god played charades with Abe".


"The numbers can't apply to the son who was to be sacrificed. The numbers apply to one son and the sacrifice to the other. Both cannot apply to the same son."


exactly. And as this verse explicitly refers to Hagar's son, and the sacrifice verse explicitly mentions Isaac, this clears everything up. Thanks.


"Covenant can pass through to offspring of Isaac only if he was certain to live rather than be sacrificed as a boy unless the sacrifice event did not apply to Isaac. "


God knew Isaac was certain to live and look at that...he lived.


"Ishmael is clearly stated in the Torah to be Abe's son, the only son at any one time. It did not need to clarify the name if he was the only son at any one time."


And yet it DOES clarify the name, listing Isaac. If there had been no son specified, then your argument would hold water. Isaac is named, thus your argument fails.


"Nations can spring from Abraham through Isaac only if he was certain to live rather than be subject of sacrifice as a boy unless he was not the subject of the sacrifice event."


as stated, he was certain to live. God knew it and Abe had faith that God wouldn't lie.


"Why circumcise Ishmael at 13 years  if it was to be on the 8th day? Why should Abraham circumcise himself at 99? Why not wait till Isaac is born then the covenant of circumcision begins if it was meant to begin with Isaac?"


Ishmael was circumcised because Abe was commanded to circumcise his whole household and Ish happened to be 13. Abe was told to circumcise himself and he was 99. The covenant was borne out of the marital relations of a father who had been circumcised. Ish's father wasn't because Abe was not yet circumcised. Isaac's father was because the covenant of circumcision was made a year before his birth (verse 21 "by this time next year"). Do the math.


"It could not CONTINUE through Isaac and his generations (to come) if he was the subject of the sacrifice unless the subject of the sacrifice was not Isaac but Ishmael. Either Isaac was the subject of sacrifice and Ishmael the subject of the covenant or Ishmael the subject of the sacrifice and Isaac the subject of the covenant. It makes no sense for the same son to be promised generations and then asked to be sacrificed as a boy."


Or, God knew that Isaac would not die so he made this covenant to continue through Isaac and named Isaac as the object of the binding. And look, he did and Isaac lived. The text is explicit about the continuation. Your argument requires an erroneous text. Is that your position?


"What does "primary son" mean? What is Hebrew for "primary son"? Or is it just an idea and ratification imagined? "


yachidcha -- your singular and unique son, asher ahavta, whom you love. The one who receives the spiritual yoke through his father...the primary inheritance of love and unique status, as textually stated, not imagined, interpolated or invented.


"How can Isaac be sacrificed if generations were to come from Isaac unless the promise was made after the sacrifice event (which was not after but before)."


though the promised was reaffirmed after, it was made before because, as stated, god knew Isaac wouldn't die and Abe had faith that god would not lie to him. But Isaac was named before and after.


"Abraham had loved Ishmael too. He did not love only Isaac."


The text never says he loved Ishmael. Only that (verse 18) he wished that Ishmael would act righteous and be "before god". Clearly, that had not been the case or else why would Abe have to wish it.


"Abraham's spirituality continued through both Ishmael and Isaac. The covenant of circumcision continued through Ishmael and Isaac. Covenant of circumcision begins with Ishmael being circumcised before Isaac was even born."


No text says that spirituality continued through Ishmael and if you claim something about circumcision then remember, all of Abe's household was circumcised when Ishmael was so by your logic, his ENTIRE HOUSEHOLD has the same level of spirituality and Ishmael is not unique, special or specifically important. This, of course, would deny what the text says about Isaac's position so it cannot be true.

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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 9:43AM #59
JRoadrunner
Posts: 5,267

May 13, 2012 -- 7:06PM, visio wrote:


And it is quite apparent that Ismael (both soul and spirit/mind) was functioned pretty independently from that of Abraham.



That's one of the reasons he failed.


May 13, 2012 -- 7:06PM, visio wrote:


Abraham had confidence that Ismael, his son, physical bodily, had a better seed than his own.  So much so that he courageously left him with his mother, Hagar, in an uninhabitted and desolated Makkah for their survival (of course under God/ALLAHswt's Command).



Hagar and Ishmael were kicked out of Abraham's house -- because of their terrible misbehavior. It was a punishment for mocking Isaac and endangering him. They were kicked out to protect Isaac, whom God confirmed is the real offspring of Abraham (21:12), the one whom Abraham loved and whom God had chosen (Gen 22). It is to Hagar and Ishmael's disgrace that they were banished.



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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:24AM #60
LeahOne
Posts: 16,571

May 2, 2012 -- 2:23PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 2:20PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Lilwabbit


I did not make such a claim. However, the changes made by the Muslims to the original narrative are what they use to claim the need for the "new and improved" version as given to them by everyone's favorite sociopath. It is no different from the Later Day Saints who hold a similar position with regard to the Christian scriptures.  The problem is created by and concerns the later traditions who need to justify themselves to themselves. The rest of us, like Rhett Butler, frankly could not give a damn, except to the extent that the beliefs and actions taken  by adherents of the later traditions affects us. Unfortunately, the beliefs and actions by Muslims based on their "new and improved" version have usually not been good for us.  




To be very honest with you Squirrell, it more sounds to me that you're privately amazed by the sheer success of Christianity and Islam, and that it poses a constant emotional challenge to you. Hence the constant need to trivialize them and explain their success by their Jewish "roots". JAstor too. I may be wrong, but this is the way you come across. And I mean this in the kindest of ways.


I wonder if JAstor could admit this? ;) I feel you would admit it over your dead body.


As I said, I may be wrong, but those who are truly comfortable with their Judaism do not need to constantly prove its superiority over other faiths by finding fault (or plagiarism).


I may be out of line here so I'll desist.





You have to understand:  the POINT of Judaism is NOT 'to get to Heaven'/avoid Hell.  That's the POINT of both Islam and Christianity. 


The POINT of Judaism is 'to live a life which is pleasing to GOD':  the details of that are outlined in the Tanach and filled in further in Talmud and other expressions of the Jewish People's search for GOD.


It never was about 'success' in terms of numbers or rulership - which again is in contrast to both Christianity and Islam. 


And BTW, I am not 'judging' those other Abrahamic faiths as "less" because they are different.  I am simply trying to explain what Judaism IS - and what it is NOT.


I think, though, while a person doesn't understand what Judaism IS all about - they can't really discuss it very intelligently.  Not with Jews, at any rate.

Moderated by Merope on May 17, 2012 - 11:40AM
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