Ibn

I realize that you like reading things out of context, however please continue reading Genesis 15 and then continue your reading at least through 17 (although you should keep reading). The answer to your question should become apparent to you. If not check back.

By the way, what translation are your reading?

May 9, 2012 -- 8:54AM, ffb wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Ibn wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 4:40PM, JAstor wrote:

Just a note: I began on BNET in 2001 by going to the Islam board and asking them to share their beliefs about Isaac and Ishmael. The thread went on for more than 2,000 posts (they don't allow that any longer). The main thing I learned from that experience was that the Quran ignored two crucial chapters Genesis (21 and 22), which clearly identified Isaac as the seed of Abraham (i.e. the heir to his spiritual heritage) and the one God told Abraham to bring up on an altar ("your son, your only son, the one whom you love, Isaac").

Abraham had not asked for heir to his "spiritual heritage" but heir to his household:

15:2

Abram said, 'O Lord, God, what will you give me if I remain childless? The heir to my household will be Damascus Eliezer.'

15:3

Abram continued, 'You have given me no children. A member of my household will inherit what is mine.'

15:4

Suddenly God's word came to him: 'That one will not be your heir! One born from your own body will inherit what is yours.'

Where does it say in the Torah that Isaac was Abraham’s “spiritual heritage”?

try gen 17:19 through 17:21

 

19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."

 

the covenant, the brit, is the spiritual heritage. the issue of "heir to the household" would already have been resolved by the birth of ishmael. Thus, clearly, that can;t be the focus here.

Good points. But it's actually said even more strongly in Genesis 21, one of those chapters Gabriel forget to tell Mohammed... oops.  

May 10, 2012 -- 6:42PM, JRoadrunner wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 8:54AM, ffb wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Ibn wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 4:40PM, JAstor wrote:

Just a note: I began on BNET in 2001 by going to the Islam board and asking them to share their beliefs about Isaac and Ishmael. The thread went on for more than 2,000 posts (they don't allow that any longer). The main thing I learned from that experience was that the Quran ignored two crucial chapters Genesis (21 and 22), which clearly identified Isaac as the seed of Abraham (i.e. the heir to his spiritual heritage) and the one God told Abraham to bring up on an altar ("your son, your only son, the one whom you love, Isaac").

Abraham had not asked for heir to his "spiritual heritage" but heir to his household:

15:2

Abram said, 'O Lord, God, what will you give me if I remain childless? The heir to my household will be Damascus Eliezer.'

15:3

Abram continued, 'You have given me no children. A member of my household will inherit what is mine.'

15:4

Suddenly God's word came to him: 'That one will not be your heir! One born from your own body will inherit what is yours.'

Where does it say in the Torah that Isaac was Abraham’s “spiritual heritage”?

try gen 17:19 through 17:21

 

19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."

 

the covenant, the brit, is the spiritual heritage. the issue of "heir to the household" would already have been resolved by the birth of ishmael. Thus, clearly, that can;t be the focus here.

Good points. But it's actually said even more strongly in Genesis 21, one of those chapters Gabriel forget to tell Mohammed... oops.  

21:12

But God said to Abraham, 'Do not be troubled because of the boy and your slave. Do everything that Sarah tells you. It is through Isaac that offspring will be considered yours.

That is exactly my point; it is not spiritual heritage but heritage of household as stated in Genesis 15.

If not, please explain what does "through Isaac that offspring will be considered yours" mean?

May 12, 2012 -- 6:53AM, Ibn wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 8:54AM, ffb wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Ibn wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 4:40PM, JAstor wrote:

Just a note: I began on BNET in 2001 by going to the Islam board and asking them to share their beliefs about Isaac and Ishmael. The thread went on for more than 2,000 posts (they don't allow that any longer). The main thing I learned from that experience was that the Quran ignored two crucial chapters Genesis (21 and 22), which clearly identified Isaac as the seed of Abraham (i.e. the heir to his spiritual heritage) and the one God told Abraham to bring up on an altar ("your son, your only son, the one whom you love, Isaac").

Abraham had not asked for heir to his "spiritual heritage" but heir to his household:

15:2

Abram said, 'O Lord, God, what will you give me if I remain childless? The heir to my household will be Damascus Eliezer.'

15:3

Abram continued, 'You have given me no children. A member of my household will inherit what is mine.'

15:4

Suddenly God's word came to him: 'That one will not be your heir! One born from your own body will inherit what is yours.'

Where does it say in the Torah that Isaac was Abraham’s “spiritual heritage”?

try gen 17:19 through 17:21

 

19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."

 

the covenant, the brit, is the spiritual heritage. the issue of "heir to the household" would already have been resolved by the birth of ishmael. Thus, clearly, that can;t be the focus here.

What is then "the covenant" that was to be established with Isaac and how it was to be everlasting?

this should answer the nature of the covenant

gen 17:1-8

May 13, 2012 -- 5:36AM, Ibn wrote:

May 12, 2012 -- 10:09PM, ffb wrote:

May 12, 2012 -- 6:53AM, Ibn wrote:

May 9, 2012 -- 8:54AM, ffb wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Ibn wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 4:40PM, JAstor wrote:

Just a note: I began on BNET in 2001 by going to the Islam board and asking them to share their beliefs about Isaac and Ishmael. The thread went on for more than 2,000 posts (they don't allow that any longer). The main thing I learned from that experience was that the Quran ignored two crucial chapters Genesis (21 and 22), which clearly identified Isaac as the seed of Abraham (i.e. the heir to his spiritual heritage) and the one God told Abraham to bring up on an altar ("your son, your only son, the one whom you love, Isaac").

Abraham had not asked for heir to his "spiritual heritage" but heir to his household:

15:2

Abram said, 'O Lord, God, what will you give me if I remain childless? The heir to my household will be Damascus Eliezer.'

15:3

Abram continued, 'You have given me no children. A member of my household will inherit what is mine.'

15:4

Suddenly God's word came to him: 'That one will not be your heir! One born from your own body will inherit what is yours.'

Where does it say in the Torah that Isaac was Abraham’s “spiritual heritage”?

try gen 17:19 through 17:21

 

19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."

 

the covenant, the brit, is the spiritual heritage. the issue of "heir to the household" would already have been resolved by the birth of ishmael. Thus, clearly, that can;t be the focus here.

What is then "the covenant" that was to be established with Isaac and how it was to be everlasting?

this should answer the nature of the covenant

gen 17:1-8

1. And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and God appeared to Abram, and He said to him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me and be perfect.		א. וַיְהִי אַבְרָם בֶּן תִּשְׁעִים שָׁנָה וְתֵשַׁע שָׁנִים וַיֵּרָא יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶל אַבְרָם וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו אֲנִי אֵל שַׁדַּי הִתְהַלֵּךְ לְפָנַי וֶהְיֵה תָמִים:
2. And I will place My covenant between Me and between you, and I will multiply you very greatly."		ב. וְאֶתְּנָה בְרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וְאַרְבֶּה אוֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד:
3. And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying,		ג. וַיִּפֹּל אַבְרָם עַל פָּנָיו וַיְדַבֵּר אִתּוֹ אֱ־לֹהִים לֵאמֹר:
4. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations.		ד. אֲנִי הִנֵּה בְרִיתִי אִתָּךְ וְהָיִיתָ לְאַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם:
5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.		ה. וְלֹא יִקָּרֵא עוֹד אֶת שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָם וְהָיָה שִׁמְךָ אַבְרָהָם כִּי אַב הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם נְתַתִּיךָ:
6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you.		ו. וְהִפְרֵתִי אֹתְךָ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְגוֹיִם וּמְלָכִים מִמְּךָ יֵצֵאוּ:
7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you.		ז. וַהֲקִמֹתִי אֶת בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָם לִבְרִית עוֹלָם לִהְיוֹת לְךָ לֵאלֹהִים וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ:
8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."		ח. וְנָתַתִּי לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֵת אֶרֶץ מְגֻרֶיךָ אֵת כָּל אֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן לַאֲחֻזַּת עוֹלָם וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵאלֹהִים:

 Thank you ffb for the clarification.

The covenant with Abram (Genesis 15) is reconfirmed in Genesis 17 and is signed and sealed with the blood of Abraham and his son Ishmael. Therefore, it is Ishmael who is the subject of the covenant with Abraham. It was signed and sealed well before even the news of Isaac being born was given to Abraham and Sarah. Of course there was to be another covenant with Isaac later on just as there was to be yet another covenant (Sinai covenant ) for the generations to come.

Thanks once again for clarifying which covenant to concentrate on in this topic.

It's to disabuse you of that misconception, that Genesis 21 comes along and says explicitly:

In other words, the seed mentioned in the covenant is Isaac, not Ishmael. 

(It's that pesky chapter 21 in Genesis that keeps getting in the way of Islam's claims.)