Hi rocketjsquirell!

You write:

We are expressly forbidden from engaging in fortune telling and other such Pagan practices. 

I was not asking you to guess when...just if there are indications in the Hebrew Scriptures.

May 2, 2012 -- 10:31AM, chanceuse wrote:

Hi Bunsinspace!

Does this sound like there's a possibility that the Messiah never comes?

....

BS"D

As long as there are Jews Messiah will come.  Maybe not now, but someday.  I think Douglas Adams illustrated that quite nicely in his Restaurant at the End of the Universe with the last-minute appearance of the Great Prophet Zarquon.

As was mentioned in another place, it is not Messiah we wait for, but the work of making peace that we do.  Messiah will be either a political ratification of that peace or a political hell-raiser to get us back on the road to peace.  Hopefully the Universe won't come to an end before then, and if it does hopefully there will be some well-placed time-turbines to give humanity a second chance.

I don't believe in this Messiah.  If we ever have world peace, then it will have to come from all the people on earth finally giving up hostility and terror, religious demands, and learning to live equally.

You can call that the Messianic Age, but I don't believe any supernatural being will be the reason for it.  There will have to be millions of men and women of good will who will decide that fighting and terror is worthless.  It can't be just one person.

The messianic vision of Isaiah is perhaps the most well-known, the most ancient and the most visually gripping scenarios of a future period of universal peace:

...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

As a Bahá'í I am probably pro-biased in my conviction that a Persian prisoner in a God-forsaken ultra-conservative corner of the 19th century world was largely responsible for the emergence of the modern cosmopolitan spirit -- the zeitgeist of our age. Personally, of course, I believe he is the moshiach himself returning unto Israel (as a sidenote his lineage is traced back to Jesse). But I'm not here to expect others to believe the same. I expect the very contrary. But I'd like to offer him as an interesting case for independent investigation and critical examination. Indeed, it would be folly to buy Bahá'u'lláh's claim at face value, inasmuch as dismissing him at face value seems equally unfair. Owing to my partiality, on one hand, as well as the importance of scientific and rational analysis that Bahá'u'lláh highlights, on the other, I took it upon myself a few years back to undertake an amateur historical research project. I undertook the project purely for my own entertainment.

My purport was to scan through all the known historical figures that precede Bahá'u'lláh which have mentioned the unity of mankind or the brotherhood of men, even if only passingly. Honesty and objectivity was my watchword. At the outset I ruled out the multitudinous imperialist declarations and manifests for world peace such as the Roman Pax Romana or the German "ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer." Not because there were quite a number of them. But because the "cosmopolitanism" of these projects did not by definition regard all the world's peoples as equals or as part of the circle of "us". My little research project yielded some fruit. From the welter of dead men and women there emerged some dozen more or less renowned historical figures that were worthy of mention.

One of the most thought-provoking and powerful verses on world unity that precedes Bahá'u'lláh is from his medieval compatriot -- Persian poet Sa'adi (1184-1283). The poem depicts the world as a body whose members feel one another's hurt. This famous poem is also displayed on the wall of the UN General Assembly in New York.

Of One Essence is the Human Race,

Thusly has Creation put the Base.

One Limb impacted is sufficient,

For all Others to feel the Mace.

The Unconcern'd with Others' Plight,

Are but Brutes with Human Face.

British poets Alfred Lord Tennyson (1809-1892) and William Blake (1757-1827), both of which are slightly older contemporaries of Bahá'u'lláh, envisioned in a few isolated verses a unified future world. Particularly Tennyson's famous words in his poem "Locksley Hall" (written in 1835) ring near-prophetic in their visionary penetration and their utopian dreaminess. But the poem is in fact everything but utopistic. It is about a soldier who has grown weary of war and decides to interrupt his march and enter a house known as the Locksley Hall. Whilst inside the house he walks down the memory lane back to his childhood and allows heart-warming dreams of a better world to comfort him in his depression:

For I dipt into the future,

far as human eye could see

Saw a Vision of the world,

and all the wonder that would be ...

Till the war-drum throbb'd no longer

and the battle-flags were furled

In the Parliament of man,

the Federation of the world.

There the common sense of most

shall hold a fretful realm in awe

And the kindly earth shall slumber

lapt in universal law.

Siddharta Gautama Buddha (d. 486-483 BC) likened mankind in the Dhammapada to a "single family". The prophet Isaiah (circa 800-700 BC) as well as Jesus of Nazareth (circa 2 BC – 30 AD) prophesied about a future "Kingdom of God" to be established on "earth".

Socrates (circa 469-399 BC) is told to have declared: "I am not Athenian nor Greek, but a citizen of the world." The very term ”cosmopolitan” (ie. ”world citizen”) appears to trace back to this statement. However, it is important to put things in historical context and remember that the "world" meant something rather different at the time of Socrates than it means now. Prophet Muhammad (570-632) reveals in the Qur'án that mankind was in the beginning a "single nation" (002.213) and that different genders, tribes and nations were made for us to "come to know one another" (049.013). The American abolitionist and Quaker Pastor William Lloyd Garrison (1805-1879) declared, in the great spirit of brotherhood awakened by the French Revolution, and after the manner of similar statements by Francis Bacon (1561-1626) and Thomas Paine (1737-1809), that "our country is the world -- our countrymen are all mankind". German philosopher and freemason Karl Krause (1781-1832) theorized about the possibility of a world republic consisting of continental federations (which would be somehow mystically unified with God). His depiction can be found in his essay "Das Urbild der Menschheit" ("The Archetype of Man") dating from 1811.

The foregoing statements represent the most significant findings of my little dilettante research project. Similar statements from other figures cannot be ruled out. But I daresay they haven't left such an imprint on mankind's collective consciousness or been adopted by its various political ideologies.

A common feature among all of the foregoing visionaries (including the more recent ones that still preceded Bahá'u'lláh) was that the vision of universal peace and brotherhood was mainly a distant and dream-like yearning, theory or a prophecy (prophecy mainly in the statements of Buddha, Isaiah and Jesus). None of them discussed the "unity" of mankind as an explicit notion, with the possible exception of Karl Krause who, however, meant by "oneness" a rather esoteric literal union/fusion of earth, nature, man and God.

But the Persian prisoner did no such thing. I think it is safe to say that Bahá'u'lláh is the first historical figure to have championed the cause of unity of mankind. As far as I know, Bahá'u'lláh is also the only figure thus far to have unequivocally declared that he has personally come to unite mankind (with the power of his words and ideas which are to gradually penetrate the world, rather than in his lifetime). He declared that the time for unification and universal brotherhood is now, if mankind wishes to avoid further, and more violent, conflict and bloodshed. Bahá'u'lláh regarded the promotion of the unification of mankind as his personal life mission and as his most important God-given commission. In comparison, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869-1948), who lived much later than Bahá'u'lláh, restricted his mission to the attainment of India's independence and unification. He admitted failing at the latter. Bahá'u'lláh's various mentions of the unity of mankind were not restricted to vague and veiled poetic outbursts (albeit he did that too) but explicitly discussed the "unity", "union" and "unification" of mankind. He also offered clearly-worded descriptions as to the nature of such a unity, the stages by which mankind will attain it, and prophecies as to its final achievement. Never did Bahá'u'lláh discuss mankind's unification as a hopeful dream or a mere utopian vision (Blake, Tennyson), let alone as his personal belief (Krause, Ulysses Grant). He regarded it as a certain and inevitable eventuality. Moreover, Bahá'u'lláh stressed that mankind is one and inter-dependent whether or not it will admit it. He conditioned mankind's well-being, peace and security to the realization of this fact.

The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.

The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established.

In many of his tablets Bahá'u'lláh emphasized that mankind's recognition of its underlying unity is the pivotal and over-arching issue of our time. The term "zeitgeist" ("spirit of the age") signifies a motive idea, a dominating character or a central trend of a certain historical period rather than a mere passing reference to a utopian vision or a theoretical possibility. Bahá'u'lláh in many ways was the zeitgeist of our age.

Bahá'u'lláh described generously in many of his tablets the harrowing afflictions which a stubborn mankind must face in order to establish its unity. He spoke of the "Lesser Peace" which shall be established first, but only after world-gripping afflictions that are the natural consequence of deeply entrenched parochial loyalties (whether national, religious or otherwise). "The Most Great Peace" shall unfold much later as a result of mankind's slow awakening to its spiritual reality and inherent nobility. Bahá'u'lláh's descriptions were holistic and they stood apart from mere secularist scenarios of economic and political union (President Ulysses Grant during the time of Bahá'u'lláh) as well as from esoteric mysticism (Blake and Krause). Rather than being content with drawing a mere mental picture and an inspiring vision, Bahá'u'lláh was more interested in concrete actions and measures.

Bahá'u'lláh is the first person to have instructed all the world's nations to adopt a universal auxiliary language and to observe the principle of collective security (which is today formally incorporated in the UN and NATO charters -- "an offense against one member-state is an offense against the entire alliance"). Unlike these treaties, however, Bahá'u'lláh insisted it has to be an absolute global principle and fully enforceable in order to actually work. This, in turn, would entail some manner of supranational government.

For Bahá'u'lláh unity was his mission in life and he wrote from his prison to the most influential kings and rulers of his time. He advised them to unite, to resolve their differences and to ensure universal peace. He told them to view the world as a sick body whose component elements are interdependent and must be harmonized in order for it to heal. He warned the world leaders about the catastrophic conflicts that are the logical consequence of ignoring his advice. For instance to Germany Bahá'u'lláh revealed the following gripping warning in 1872 after the Prussian king Wilhelm I had defeated Louís Napoleón:

“O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” (Revealed in Arabic by Bahá’u’lláh in the year 1872, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, par. 90)

Bahá'u'lláh also seems to be the only figure in the history of mankind to declare the unification of mankind as God's commandment to all the world's peoples. A commandment the observance to which will result in well-being and security, and the neglect of which will result in ever-increasingly destructive crises. Bahá'u'lláh declared the unity of mankind to be the greatest God's commandment of our time, "the monarch of all aspirations".

That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 250)

In my personal opinion, what makes all this particularly interesting is the fact that almost all of the cosmopolitan-minded contemporaries of Bahá'u'lláh -- poets, philosophers, political visionaries -- who had in one or another way envisaged world peace and universal brotherhood (and who themselves were an anomaly in an era of nationalistic awakening), were Western thinkers, highly educated and well-known aristocrats pampered with luxuries and ease.

What was Bahá'u'lláh? An unknown prisoner, an outcast, a target of constant persecution. He had never had the time nor luxury to read books or to engage in private contemplation. He was born and bred in one of the most violent and backward corners of the world at the time. He paid for his views by imprisonment, torture and the mass-murder of his followers and loved ones. By suffering and bondage he proved the strength of his faith in these ideals. All of this was going on while his contemporaries in the West sat in their armchairs, smoked their pipes, lived in the world's technologically most advanced parts and represented their wealthiest classes.

And yet this far-off exile in Ottoman Palestine appears to have been the only figure in the history of mankind, and the only 19th century personage, to champion the cause of unity, to make it his life mission, and to set it for all men and women of our time as "the monarch of all aspirations".

Kind regards,

LilWabbit

May 7, 2012 -- 2:08PM, Bunsinspace wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 12:58PM, river8101 wrote:

I don't believe in this Messiah.  ....

BS"D

You are exactly right IMHO.  Jews don't need to believe in their own messiah like Christians or Moslems do for theirs.  For Jews messiah is simply the end result of a lot of hard work on behalf of the Jewish people.  The notion that messiah will come as a savior of a totally corrupt mankind is basicly the wishful thinking of that selfsame morally and spiritually bankrupt people.   The Jewish people have demonstrated for over 5 millenia that the divine alone is our savior and we don't need no stinkin' messiah to save us.  Rather, messiah will be the natural result of all of our hopes and dreams that we have worked to create for our future generations.  That is what it means to "merit the messiah."  It means we EARNED it by conscious effort and labor.  It means we evolved as a people just as we did at Sinai from a warrior society to a civil society.

That makes sense, :) Thank you