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Switch to Forum Live View Religious people are less motivated by compassion
2 years ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 11:33PM #51
CaliberCadillac
Posts: 2,867

May 5, 2012 -- 10:14PM, Ken wrote:


May 5, 2012 -- 8:15PM, CaliberCadillac wrote:

Since the topic is the moral motivation of people, there are few other authorities MORE relevant than Kohlberg.


Only if he's the sort of thing you like.


If I had no familiarity with Kohlberg how could I have possibly known to reference him?


Vague recollections of an undergraduate course, a quick glance at Wikipedia, and a taste for name-dropping.


I can’t speak for “most religious people.” Personally, as a Christian, I have no “fear of punishment (Hell)” because I believe (per Orthodox Christian soteriology), that Christ provided me a GET OUT OF HELL FREE card.


You needed him to do that for you? Hmmph.




In other words, since you have nothing constructive to contribute to the dialogue you'll just take the opportunity to say something stupid?




"Sometimes you gotta step into the ring and throw a few punches for what you believe in."

--Ernest Hemingway--
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 9:13AM #52
Ken
Posts: 33,859

No.


You are no doubt aware that Kohlberg has numerous detractors within his own profession who would not consider him a relevant authority. You cannot simply claim him as one without further justification and expect that claim to be accepted by anyone who isn't already a partisan of his. I merely reminded you of that.


You asked "If I had no familiarity with Kohlberg how could I have possibly known to reference him?" I answered your question. If you didn't want an answer, you shouldn't have asked it.


The idea that there is a place of eternal punishment to which you will surely go when you die unless a dead Jew decides to rescue you from it out of the goodness of his heart certainly calls for a "Hmmph!" It is distinctly crude and bizarre.


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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 12:01PM #53
JCarlin
Posts: 6,346

May 5, 2012 -- 8:15PM, CaliberCadillac wrote:

May 3, 2012 -- 10:48AM, JCarlin wrote:

May 3, 2012 -- 1:35AM, CaliberCadillac wrote:

Obviously you had no familiarity with Lawrence Kohlberg--even after I provided the link.  If you did, perhaps you wouldn’t have been so dismissive.  Kohlberg's work on moral development is considered a pillar of modern developmental psychology. 


Arguments from authority especially misunderstood or misinterpreted arguments from authority are generally dismissed in reasonable debate.


I doubt that you know what a “reasonable debate” looks likes.


There is no logical problem appealing to authority when the authority is relevant.  In education we call it “CITING REFERENCES.”


Since the topic is the moral motivation of people, there are few other authorities MORE relevant than Kohlberg. It seems the only thing misunderstood here is your poor understanding of logical fallacies.


Citing references, is generally understood to be in support of an argument that one is promoting in a debate, the reference may not stand in for an argument.  The fact that you don't seem to understand that Kohlberg is generally understood to be discussing justice and not morality makes him less useful to buttress a moral argument.  Particularly since Kohlberg's theories even of justice have been questioned on the basis of biased sampling, not to mention derivative from Piaget.  Perhaps you had best research what reasonable debate looks likes a little better.


Incidentally, insults do not improve your arguments.  Insults are generally considered to be admissions of a weak argument. 


 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 3:30PM #54
CaliberCadillac
Posts: 2,867

May 6, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Ken wrote:


No.


You are no doubt aware that Kohlberg has numerous detractors within his own profession who would not consider him a relevant authority. You cannot simply claim him as one without further justification and expect that claim to be accepted by anyone who isn't already a partisan of his. I merely reminded you of that.




Every psychological theory has its detractors.  The only real objections to Kohlberg have come from those who allege that his TESTS were bias toward women, did not reflect cultural differences, and whether or not test subjects were simply “talking a good game.”  This does no damage to Kohlberg’s theory about stages of moral development itself.  Just like IQ tests that don’t take such things into account—it doesn’t mean that intelligent quotients aren’t real or that intelligent quotients can’t be measured.


Understanding Kohlberg is still required for all levels of study in human behavioral development--both undergrad and post graduate.  Regardless of whether or not all agree with, (and no two psychologists ever agree on everything), none would say his work would not be relevant to the topic.


It seems to me, you just don’t like Kohlberg in this discussion because a theist made reference to him.  I suspect that if the reference had come from an atheist you would no doubt be backing him.


May 6, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Ken wrote:


You asked "If I had no familiarity with Kohlberg how could I have possibly known to reference him?" I answered your question. If you didn't want an answer, you shouldn't have asked it.”




First, the question wasn’t to you.  Second, what you provided wasn’t an answer, it was a baseless allegation intended as an insult and thus added nothing constructive to the discussion.  That being the case, your remark was just as I said—stupid.


May 6, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Ken wrote:


The idea that there is a place of eternal punishment to which you will surely go when you die unless a dead Jew decides to rescue you from it out of the goodness of his heart certainly calls for a "Hmmph!" It is distinctly crude and bizarre.




Not me—you.  Hell is not something I need concern myself with, so it has nothing to do with my motives in being generous.  And I really don’t care if you think what I believe is crude and bizarre.  

"Sometimes you gotta step into the ring and throw a few punches for what you believe in."

--Ernest Hemingway--
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 3:39PM #55
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Really, Cal, it's so easy to get you going.

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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 3:42PM #56
CaliberCadillac
Posts: 2,867

May 6, 2012 -- 12:01PM, JCarlin wrote:


May 5, 2012 -- 8:15PM, CaliberCadillac wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 10:48AM, JCarlin wrote:


Arguments from authority especially misunderstood or misinterpreted arguments from authority are generally dismissed in reasonable debate.




I doubt that you know what a “reasonable debate” looks likes.


There is no logical problem appealing to authority when the authority is relevant.  In education we call it “CITING REFERENCES.”


Since the topic is the moral motivation of people, there are few other authorities MORE relevant than Kohlberg. It seems the only thing misunderstood here is your poor understanding of logical fallacies.




 Citing references, is generally understood to be in support of an argument that one is promoting in a debate, the reference may not stand in for an argument.




I didn’t use the reference as an argument.  I used the reference to explain my motivation for generosity. 


Do you have any idea of what you’re talking about? 


Or do you just make s**t up hoping no one will notice???


May 6, 2012 -- 12:01PM, JCarlin wrote:


The fact that you don't seem to understand that Kohlberg is generally understood to be discussing justice and not morality makes him less useful to buttress a moral argument. 




Nonsense.


This, from the same textbook I cited in my previous response:


“One of the most influential researchers in moral development was Lawrence Kohlberg (1927-1987)….[H]e developed a highly influential model of moral development.” (Huffman, Ibid, pg. 351, underlining mine).


May 6, 2012 -- 12:01PM, JCarlin wrote:


Perhaps you had best research what reasonable debate looks likes a little better.




"One who is getting his ass kicked has no place criticizing his opponent's fighting techniques." --Bruce Lee--


May 6, 2012 -- 12:01PM, JCarlin wrote:


Incidentally, insults do not improve your arguments.  Insults are generally considered to be admissions of a weak argument. 




If true, it says something about your last comment, doesn’t it?  Or do you only apply that rule to theists?


It seems, once again, you’ve made it really easy for me to call your horses**t, “bulls**t.”

"Sometimes you gotta step into the ring and throw a few punches for what you believe in."

--Ernest Hemingway--
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 4:06PM #57
mountain_man
Posts: 38,733

May 6, 2012 -- 3:39PM, Ken wrote:

Really, Cal, it's so easy to get you going.


It's easy to see what the motivations of some are, and in this case compassion is not one of them.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 4:42PM #58
JCarlin
Posts: 6,346

May 6, 2012 -- 3:42PM, CaliberCadillac wrote:

May 6, 2012 -- 12:01PM, JCarlin wrote:

The fact that you don't seem to understand that Kohlberg is generally understood to be discussing justice and not morality makes him less useful to buttress a moral argument.


Nonsense.


This, from the same textbook I cited in my previous response:


“One of the most influential researchers in moral development was Lawrence Kohlberg (1927-1987)….[H]e developed a highly influential model of moral development.” (Huffman, Ibid, pg. 351, underlining mine).


Not only an argument from authority but a secondary reference to that authority at that.  Perhaps you really need to study Kohlberg and try to understand his theories and responses by his peers.


Edit: I looked up Huffman and it appears to be respected only by the publisher and students.  The one peer reference quoted by the publisher referred only to its popularity not to its authorativeness.    

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 7:24PM #59
CaliberCadillac
Posts: 2,867

May 6, 2012 -- 4:42PM, JCarlin wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 3:42PM, CaliberCadillac wrote:

May 6, 2012 -- 12:01PM, JCarlin wrote:

The fact that you don't seem to understand that Kohlberg is generally understood to be discussing justice and not morality makes him less useful to buttress a moral argument.


Nonsense.


This, from the same textbook I cited in my previous response:


“One of the most influential researchers in moral development was Lawrence Kohlberg (1927-1987)….[H]e developed a highly influential model of moral development.” (Huffman, Ibid, pg. 351, underlining mine).


Not only an argument from authority but a secondary reference to that authority at that.  Perhaps you really need to study Kohlberg and try to understand his theories and responses by his peers.


Edit: I looked up Huffman and it appears to be respected only by the publisher and students.  The one peer reference quoted by the publisher referred only to its popularity not to its authorativeness.    




The Huffman source is straight out of a college textbook on Psychology.  


Now, I am literally laughing at your level of scholastic incompetence. 


Again, there is no logical fallacy in referencing a relevant authority to support an argument or position.  The only logical fallacy here is you thinking there is. 


Which proves once again—all your horse s**t is bulls**t. Laughing






"Sometimes you gotta step into the ring and throw a few punches for what you believe in."

--Ernest Hemingway--
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 7:28PM #60
Ken
Posts: 33,859

May 6, 2012 -- 7:24PM, CaliberCadillac wrote:

The Huffman source is straight out of a college textbook on Psychology. 


And we all know that college textbooks are the last word on everything.

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