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Switch to Forum Live View Predestination Vs JW's and free-will
2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 7:46PM #1
Theo
Posts: 4,691

Well - in as much as everyone seems more interested in talking about anything but Predestination on Newts thread - I decided to open another thread about that subject, and just repost my previous posts to this new thread - we will see if JWs are really interested in talking about Sovereignty and Predestination, or if all they really want to talk about is the end of the world.


Wow, I find it amazing that anybody who believes in the Bible would openly say they reject the teaching of predestination - I mean really Newt - the word is right there in black and white in the Bible. And while I am not a 5 point Calvinist or an Augustinian theologian, I definitely believe in the doctrines of Grace, Sovereignty and Predestination. Moreover, I also believe in human free-will, also known as the doctrine of choice... nor do I see a contradiction between these concepts. I do agree many people get confused by these issues and believe there is no way to harmonize the Sovereignty of God with the free-will of man... but I am not one of those people.



The first thing I would note about our apparent free will is that we are not truly free. We have the appearance of free will, (certainly not a false freedom, but it is actually far more limited than what it appears to us) when you examine things carefully, what we really have is the power of choice - a choice between many things to be sure, but a limited array of choices nonetheless.


In the Garden, Eve had a choice, Adam had a choice, but they were not free to choose differently than the choice put before them... namely, choose to obey God, or choose to eat the forbidden fruit. So, being tempted to eat and become like God - they chose to risk it. Human beings are all given the power to choose, and though the range of choices available to us may appear to be greater than the choice given Adam and Eve, the reality is, it boils down to choose God and live, or choose the devil and die.


In the Bible God gave the Israelites a choice... Jer 21:8-9 "Now you shall say to this people, 'Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death." Deut 30:19-20 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."


The reality is that we are all given this choice - and we are accountable to God for the choice we make. If we choose to follow God, we will reap what we sow... likewise if we choose to not obey God, we will reap the harvest of our disobedience. Want a bountiful harvest of good things? Sow to God by believing in His Son and obeying His commandments. Want to do your own thing and forget about God? Sorry, but that is the way of death we have been commanded to not choose... but that we have the power to choose nonetheless.


So you might say... If God is Sovereign, and predestines some to salvation and others to damnation, how does our choice matter? And the answer is - God does not predetermine your choice, He gave us the power of choice, AND predestined those He foreknew (i.e. those He choice from the beginning of time) to be conformed to the image of His Son... Our choice is still our choice, even so, we are accountable to Him.


No Sovereign on earth has the power to make people obey them, rather what they have is the power to reward those who obey them, and punish those who disobey them. God has this power over us, but in addition to that, God has the foreknowledge to know everything within linear time, past present and future, and it just so happens that God knew from the foundation of the world, those who have, and will believe in Jesus Christ - and thus in His paradigm, (Rom 8:30 > Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified ) its a done deal.




In God's paradigm, its already done, but in the human paradigm - we are still in play, and we are at risk, and thus we see God working in us and through us to form Christ in us.



~ Theophilus


Rom 8:29-30 > For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Eph 1:3-6 > Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


Eph 1:11-12 > In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.


God has the power to predestinate, which literally means; to mark out beforehand, or predetermine things. Human beings have this power to, but in a far more limited fashion. In 2010 I determined a destination that I wanted to go to, and in Feb of 2011, I flew to South Island New Zealand, and spent a week seeing the beautiful sites in the mountains and on the coast. In other words, I made plans, and then I set those plans in motion; I made reservations, I bought the tickets, and then, when the day of my departure arrived, I got myself on board a Boeing 777 and away I went... that is predestination human style.


However, unlike my example, God did not predetermine His destination, rather He predestined us (i.e. God's elect), and having chosen us before the foundation of the world, (i.e. this order of things) God appointed us to salvation (which is basically what Paul was saying in Eph 1:3-6.) Moreover, this Divine act was done by God before any of us existed, according to His foreknowledge...   1 Peter 1:1-2 > "To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:


The foreknowledge of God is one of His many unique attributers... but it is not so much a power that He alone possesses, as much as the logical result of being the artistic creator of all things. God had to have something in mind in order to create the Universe and the world we live in... just like I as an artist have to have a plan (i.e. logos) in mind before beginning a painting. You don't just start painting on a blank canvas with no idea of what you're going to paint, and end up with a beautiful work of art - you have to have something in mind before you begin... and so it was with God. God had us (i.e. His elect) in mind before the foundation of the world, and thus having foreknown us, He predestined us (or marked us out beforehand - before creation) and then He created all things, and thus set in motion everything... the natural result of which will be - God getting what He wants.


Do you understand process? No one can just snap their fingers and create a beautiful painting, and the reason is because it takes numerous processes in order to produce a work of art. I am sure that God could have snapped His fingers (figuratively speaking) and produced a whole kingdom of happy glorified eternal beings, who all love and adore Him... but none of them would choose to love Him as we do, they would be programmed to love Him. In order to obtain what He wanted, God had to invent and follow a process... a process that we have to go through in order to make us into the kind of beings He wants us to be. And that process involves our will and our choice, just as much as it began with His will and His choice.


God foreknew all things, thus He is omniscient, and knows all things; and before He created anything, He determined everything, (the logos of God) He designed and thus determined everything... everything we know of and about creation, God determined it all before it existed. And then God created all things, and thereby set His plans in motion... the end result of God's predestination is that we (God's elect) will be before Him, (in His presence) holy and blameless, loving God and one another, all because of Jesus Christ... we will be to the praise of His glory, i.e. the end result of God's work of creation. Showing a great work of art to the public magnifies the artist in the eyes of admirers, and so God and Christ will receive all the glory and praise that results from Their great work to produce us - the redeemed of all ages.





~ Theophilus


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 8:30PM #2
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


The first thing I would note about our apparent free will is that we are not truly free. We have the appearance of free will, (certainly not a false freedom, but it is actually far more limited than what it appears to us) when you examine things carefully, what we really have is the power of choice - a choice between many things to be sure, but a limited array of choices nonetheless.




I agree with this in that we have limited choices.  I guess a more appropriate term is ability to choose what's set before us.  That's essentially all we have claim to.


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


In the Garden, Eve had a choice, Adam had a choice, but they were not free to choose differently than the choice put before them... namely, choose to obey God, or choose to eat the forbidden fruit. So, being tempted to eat and become like God - they chose to risk it. Human beings are all given the power to choose, and though the range of choices available to us may appear to be greater than the choice given Adam and Eve, the reality is, it boils down to choose God and live, or choose the devil and die.



There are a number of problems with that.  Which version of God?  Is he even there?


Try and understand my POV.  That's like a Muslim telling you, "people have the choice to choose Allah or the Devil."


I use the Muslims frequently to draw parallel, but it get's the point across.


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


In the Bible God gave the Israelites a choice... Jer 21:8-9 "Now you shall say to this people, 'Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death." Deut 30:19-20 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."


The reality is that we are all given this choice - and we are accountable to God for the choice we make. If we choose to follow God, we will reap what we sow... likewise if we choose to not obey God, we will reap the harvest of our disobedience. Want a bountiful harvest of good things? Sow to God by believing in His Son and obeying His commandments. Want to do your own thing and forget about God? Sorry, but that is the way of death we have been commanded to not choose... but that we have the power to choose nonetheless.



Again, perhaps if God were more clear with his message, perhaps this wouldn't be a problem?


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


So you might say... If God is Sovereign, and predestines some to salvation and others to damnation, how does our choice matter? And the answer is - God does not predetermine your choice, He gave us the power of choice, AND predestined those He foreknew (i.e. those He choice from the beginning of time) to be conformed to the image of His Son... Our choice is still our choice, even so, we are accountable to Him.



Hmm... there is a problem with this as well.  The examples I gave sort of flustered Newtonian, and I'm wondering how you would handle them. 


Cyrus, the prophecies of Revelation, even Jesus.  All of these three involve heavily detailed prophecies.  Could any of the prophecies fail?  Could Cyrus or his parents choose to name him Cyrus?  Could Jesus fail in his mission?


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


No Sovereign on earth has the power to make people obey them, rather what they have is the power to reward those who obey them, and punish those who disobey them. God has this power over us, but in addition to that, God has the foreknowledge to know everything within linear time, past present and future, and it just so happens that God knew from the foundation of the world, those who have, and will believe in Jesus Christ - and thus in His paradigm, (Rom 8:30 > Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified ) its a done deal.



Unless you want to use the awkward interpretation of JWs that everyone that didn't know God essentially get's a second chance, then your interpretation is just cruel.  God selects the good, and the bad?  This text comes to mind...


Proverbs 18:4


The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
    even the wicked for the day of trouble.


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:



God has the power to predestinate, which literally means; to mark out beforehand, or predetermine things. Human beings have this power to, but in a far more limited fashion. In 2010 I determined a destination that I wanted to go to, and in Feb of 2011, I flew to South Island New Zealand, and spent a week seeing the beautiful sites in the mountains and on the coast. In other words, I made plans, and then I set those plans in motion; I made reservations, I bought the tickets, and then, when the day of my departure arrived, I got myself on board a Boeing 777 and away I went... that is predestination human style.


However, unlike my example, God did not predetermine His destination, rather He predestined us (i.e. God's elect), and having chosen us before the foundation of the world, (i.e. this order of things) God appointed us to salvation (which is basically what Paul was saying in Eph 1:3-6.) Moreover, this Divine act was done by God before any of us existed, according to His foreknowledge...   1 Peter 1:1-2 > "To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:



So here, basically God selected his chosen.  I'll ask you something a bit more personal, don't take this the wrong way, just to let it hit home.


I remember you said on another thread a while ago that at 19 you "saw the light" and became Christian, practically from one day to the next.  Let me ask you, would you say your knowledge of Christ and salvation and all that was circumstantial?  What if you had been born in Egypt, Afghanistan, or any other non-Christian country?  Would you have still been one of "God's elect?"


If not, why?


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


The foreknowledge of God is one of His many unique attributers... but it is not so much a power that He alone possesses, as much as the logical result of being the artistic creator of all things. God had to have something in mind in order to create the Universe and the world we live in... just like I as an artist have to have a plan (i.e. logos) in mind before beginning a painting. You don't just start painting on a blank canvas with no idea of what you're going to paint, and end up with a beautiful work of art - you have to have something in mind before you begin... and so it was with God. God had us (i.e. His elect) in mind before the foundation of the world, and thus having foreknown us, He predestined us (or marked us out beforehand - before creation) and then He created all things, and thus set in motion everything... the natural result of which will be - God getting what He wants.



At the end of the day, Free will vs Predestination is bupkis.  If God ends up getting what he wants, then Free Will is non-existent.  Those that "choose" wrong will cease to be anyways, and all that will remain is God's servants.  It's no different than accusing God of creating automatons, he ends up getting what he wants, worshippers.  Predestination is not God's love for humanity, it's his way of taunting us.


God - "Your evil, even though I realize circumstance, biology, and other such random factors made you who you are.  Haha."


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


Do you understand process? No one can just snap their fingers and create a beautiful painting, and the reason is because it takes numerous processes in order to produce a work of art. I am sure that God could have snapped His fingers (figuratively speaking) and produced a whole kingdom of happy glorified eternal beings, who all love and adore Him... but none of them would choose to love Him as we do, they would be programmed to love Him. In order to obtain what He wanted, God had to invent and follow a process... a process that we have to go through in order to make us into the kind of beings He wants us to be. And that process involves our will and our choice, just as much as it began with His will and His choice.



Read the above.  Your artistic God is one hell of a painter, I'll give you that.  If the work of an artist expresses and reveals who he truly is, then your God is Dorian Gray and this life we have before us is the warped portrait that degenerates everytime he wills something bad.


Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:46PM, Theo wrote:


God foreknew all things, thus He is omniscient, and knows all things; and before He created anything, He determined everything, (the logos of God) He designed and thus determined everything... everything we know of and about creation, God determined it all before it existed. And then God created all things, and thereby set His plans in motion... the end result of God's predestination is that we (God's elect) will be before Him, (in His presence) holy and blameless, loving God and one another, all because of Jesus Christ... we will be to the praise of His glory, i.e. the end result of God's work of creation. Showing a great work of art to the public magnifies the artist in the eyes of admirers, and so God and Christ will receive all the glory and praise that results from Their great work to produce us - the redeemed of all ages.



I agree.  God deserves full credit for predation/parasitism/eventual heat death of universe.  Bravo.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:39PM #3
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 30, 2012 -- 8:30PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


I agree.  God deserves full credit for predation/parasitism/eventual heat death of universe.  Bravo.




Wait. Aren't you forgetting thermodynamics?

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 12:25AM #4
Theo
Posts: 4,691

I wish there was something I could say to you that would change your mind about God... sadly to those who perished in the flood, God indeed appeared to be an unjust monster. But for Noah and his family, God was a Deliverer and Savior. To Noah, those who perished in the flood died justly for their crimes against God and their fellow man... against God; because He warned them to repent and gave them a hundred years to turn from their wicked ways, and against their fellow man; because they corrupted themselves, perverted justice, oppressed and abused one another.


The way I see it, your transgression is against God, because you are judging Him - the One who is just and true and holy in all His ways. Sadly, this is a common phase for those who have been disillusioned about the whole God and religion thing... I've sort of been there myself even though I was never a Jehovah's Witness. But in my case, I decided to not allow those who disappointed me, lied to me, lied about me, hurt and abused me to my face and to my friends, to rob me of my hope in God. I still knew that God exists, because I had a personal visitation from God when I was 19... and that experience changed my life and is something that I cannot deny or rationalize. There are secular explanations for what happened to me, I've read about them - but I cannot talk myself into them. I know what happened to me, so that being my reality, it was a no-brainer to side with God and against His gainsayers.


But that being said, it does me no harm to have people I know speak against God, He has had detractors and accusers for a very long time. In this respect, the Book of Job has a few words to say that come to my mind... Job 11:7-11 > "Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than heaven — what can you do? Deeper than Sheol — what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea. "If He passes by, imprisons, and gathers to judgment, then who can hinder Him? For He knows deceitful men; He sees wickedness also -will He not then consider it?"


The best a secular man can so is compare himself and his ideas of right and wrong against what he sees God allegedly doing in the Bible, and judge Him from one's very limited perspective. A far safer thing to do would be to just let sleeping dogs lie, and go do something that interests you. But I understand how many people are tasked by the things that have wounded them, and they simply can't let them go, but have to build an intellectual defense against them to justify their stance. That's a very human thing to do. I like you knowsnothing - and am reserving judgment. I have faith that when you have recovered, you will grow strong in your faith once again - not in someone else's faith and explanation, but in your own faith.


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 1:36AM #5
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Personal revelation would be grand, but just with that alone, it seems God favors some more than others. 


I just honestly don't think it's too much to ask that if the God of the Bible purports to be who he is can just show himself to humanity.  I also think he wouldn't allow the confusion you see in so many denominations and religions.


I mean really, Theo, 1.5 billion Muslims mean nothing to you?  Mean nothing to God?  Just cook 'em cause they don't agree with your version?  If I'm hung up on anything, it's reality.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 5:29AM #6
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:39PM, cherubino wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 8:30PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


I agree.  God deserves full credit for predation/parasitism/eventual heat death of universe.  Bravo.




Wait. Aren't you forgetting thermodynamics?




Cherubino - Good point - of course, heat simply distributes - it doesn't die - and that also involves the law of conservation of matter and energy. 


Heat death models are just one branch of a number of doomsday prophecies currently popular among astronomers but which are inaccurate scientifically and also contradictory to the Bible.


This should have a separate thread, but here goes:


Heat death makes a number of assumptions, most simply unlikely - others actually false - I'll start with an obvious false assertion:


1.   Many popular astronomy programs (TV), etc., falsely state that all galaxies are receding from each other and from Milky Way.   Thus they teach our skies will ultimately become darker as dark energy forces apart galaxies and stars.   Actual observation disproves this false assertion.  


For example, most galaxies, including ours, have a large proportion of dark matter that actually causes more distant stars to revolve around galactic centers at roughly the same velocity (speed) as stars closer to galactic centers - quite different from planets revolving around stars, like in our solar system - where further planets revolve more slowly that closer planets.   Dark matter exerts gravity and has, in fact, caused the formation of galaxies in our universe - and it is not going anywhere, to our knowledge - so galaxies will remain mostly in tact.


As for galaxies, it is true that generally galaxies are receding away from each other - for the roughly 100 billion + galaxies.    And dark energy is causing this somehow.


However, what many astronomers fail to point out when discussing "Big Rip" scenarios is that there are galactic superclusters which are NOT receding away from each other.   In fact, for Milky Way, we will actually merge with Andromeda galaxy - yes, Andromeda and other galaxies in our galactic supercluster are Blue shifted, not red shifted.  


Also ignored by those putting forth the heat death scenario is that there are thousands of galaxies - not just our local supercluster, that are all being attracted to a Great Attractor!


And many of these galaxies, over future trillions of years and quadrillions of years will merge/collide - and it is known by actual observation that galactic mergers/collisions cause stellar nurseries to form and many new stars to form as a result.


2.  Further showing the folly of Heat death scenarios is the assumption that our universe is a closed system that is not and never will interact with other universes.   Just last night I watched an episode of "Through the Wormhole" on the science channel which discussed evidence from WMAP - the recently compiled map of the microwave background radiation of our universe (left over from the "Big Bang") which shows that all galaxies are being slightly pulled to one side.   The cause was put forth that they are being pulled by another universe which is already interacting with our universe.


Obviously, if our universe is indeed currently interacting with another universe, this will add still more energy to our universe - quite the opposite of heat death scenarios.


3.  And, finally, heat death scenarios ignore the cause of the big bang itself - they fail to explain how our universe at its creation got so hot in the first place!   The cause, as Genesis 1:1 states, is ultimately our Creator - but how he did this is a matter of scientific study.   However the "Big Bang" was caused - it introduced an incredible amount of heat and all sorts of forms of energy to that tiny area our universe was created in (not necessarily a true singularity - perhaps simply smaller in diameter than Planck length - or perhaps a true singularity if the cause was the collision of two dimension branes - which could have collided at a singularity point).


4.  Of course, all this involves Genesis 1:1 - how God created the heavens and the earth; and also Isaiah 40:22 and cross references- how God is stretching out the heavens (e.g. dark energy).   God fine tuned our universe in the first place to allow for stars and life to exist - He certainly will continue to 'work' at making our universe and earth in harmony with His purpose - which we know for this earth is to be inhabited forever.


In short, astronomers have many doomsday prophecies which the Bible shows are false alarms - but few realize that God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth!  (Revelation 11:18}

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 5:40AM #7
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

May 1, 2012 -- 1:36AM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Personal revelation would be grand, but just with that alone, it seems God favors some more than others. 


I just honestly don't think it's too much to ask that if the God of the Bible purports to be who he is can just show himself to humanity.  I also think he wouldn't allow the confusion you see in so many denominations and religions.


I mean really, Theo, 1.5 billion Muslims mean nothing to you?  Mean nothing to God?  Just cook 'em cause they don't agree with your version?  If I'm hung up on anything, it's reality.




Knowsnothing - Jehovah revealed himself through Christ Jesus - did you actually forget that?


Also Jehovah reveals himself through His Witnesses - as foretold in Isaiah 43:10-12 - did you forget that?


Confusion - really?  The confusion is caused by money and power hungry clergy in many religions. 


Jesus simple teachings that are contradictied by most religions include these two biggies:


1.  Matthew 10:8 - You received free, give free.   Thus Jehovah's Witnesses follow Jesus example - Jesus was not paid for his preaching, nor are we - we have no paid clergy - but most religions do.   This is not confusion - even a child understands giving free because we received free!


2.  Matthew 5:44 - Jesus taught us to love our enemies.  Thus Jehovah's Witnesses abstain from war - enjoying the miraculous fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 and thus learning war no more.   Most religions go to war.  This is not confusion - even a child know you are not showing love to your enemy if you try to hurt him in some way such as in war!


Satan is the author of confusion - he naturally appeals to the greed of money-loving clergy - and to the violence that nations give vent to in wars.


It is sad you have lost sight of the simple teachings of Jesus Christ!   I encourage you to review what Jesus actually taught and who are actually following what Jesus taught!

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 8:40AM #8
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

May 1, 2012 -- 5:40AM, Newtonian wrote:


Knowsnothing - Jehovah revealed himself through Christ Jesus - did you actually forget that?


Also Jehovah reveals himself through His Witnesses - as foretold in Isaiah 43:10-12 - did you forget that?


Confusion - really?  The confusion is caused by money and power hungry clergy in many religions. 


Jesus simple teachings that are contradictied by most religions include these two biggies:


1.  Matthew 10:8 - You received free, give free.   Thus Jehovah's Witnesses follow Jesus example - Jesus was not paid for his preaching, nor are we - we have no paid clergy - but most religions do.   This is not confusion - even a child understands giving free because we received free!


2.  Matthew 5:44 - Jesus taught us to love our enemies.  Thus Jehovah's Witnesses abstain from war - enjoying the miraculous fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 and thus learning war no more.   Most religions go to war.  This is not confusion - even a child know you are not showing love to your enemy if you try to hurt him in some way such as in war!


Satan is the author of confusion - he naturally appeals to the greed of money-loving clergy - and to the violence that nations give vent to in wars.


It is sad you have lost sight of the simple teachings of Jesus Christ!   I encourage you to review what Jesus actually taught and who are actually following what Jesus taught!




OMG! That's word-for-word the same extortion-blackmail theology that the nuns used on us little Catholic urchins 60 years ago. Some things never change.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:03AM #9
Truthwillset
Posts: 1,267

May 1, 2012 -- 5:40AM, Newtonian wrote:


Knowsnothing - Jehovah revealed himself through Christ Jesus - did you actually forget that?


tws-Well, I guess that would great for those that met and knew him 2,000 years ago.


Also Jehovah reveals himself through His Witnesses - as foretold in Isaiah 43:10-12 - did you forget that?


tws-So I can call myself "Jehovah's Witness" and apparently, by the mere fact that I do that, everyone will have to listen to me if they want to get to know Jehovah.  And the proof is he said so in Isaiah 43:10-12!  How can you deny it?  Well, isn't that convenient?


Confusion - really?  The confusion is caused by money and power hungry clergy in many religions. 


tws-and those nice people knocking on your door Saturday morning telling you everything you were taught from childhood is lies, lies, lies!  What are they called...


Jesus simple teachings that are contradictied by most religions include these two biggies:


1.  Matthew 10:8 - You received free, give free.   Thus Jehovah's Witnesses follow Jesus example - Jesus was not paid for his preaching, nor are we - we have no paid clergy - but most religions do.   This is not confusion - even a child understands giving free because we received free!


2.  Matthew 5:44 - Jesus taught us to love our enemies.  Thus Jehovah's Witnesses abstain from war - enjoying the miraculous fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 and thus learning war no more.   Most religions go to war.  This is not confusion - even a child know you are not showing love to your enemy if you try to hurt him in some way such as in war!


Satan is the author of confusion - he naturally appeals to the greed of money-loving clergy - and to the violence that nations give vent to in wars.


tws-Does confusion about who the "superior authorities" are count?  How about confusion about whether your mate having sex with animals grounds for divorce?


It is sad you have lost sight of the simple teachings of Jesus Christ!   I encourage you to review what Jesus actually taught and who are actually following what Jesus taught!


tws-guilt tripping, yeah, that's the ticket.  Maybe all those who left will come back if you guilt trip them into it.





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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 11:37AM #10
DNT
Posts: 1,514

Hey


The problem i had with predestination when i first became a Christian, was what is the point of Preaching his word if he already knows who is saved and who is not. What helped me was i listened to a teaching on this subject which sort of clarified it for me, what i learned was that God did not actually make us all and said this one is saved, this one will not be saved etc, but God did not make us to be automaton, he made us with free will, but he knew what path we were going to take, he knew which individual was going to believe he is who he said he is and he knew which ones would turn there backs on him, i believe that there is a difference between making an individual take a certain path and knowing the path he is going to take, i firmly believe that an Omniscient being would be able to know the out come of any creation before he actually created it.


So i believe that he wants us to preach the truth of the Gospel because he knows who will listen to it and believe, we actually would not know this, i also believe once you are saved you will actually know for sure that you are written in the lambs book of life. This is another reason we should try and understand Prophecy, the fact that every prophecy has come to fulfillment so far there is no reason why the rest of it will not, and i believe these is one of the ways God reveals the truth of the Bible, he knows every thing that is going to happen even before it has happened, the Bible is historically,scientifically, morally and prophetically correct so far and there is absolutely nothing to refute any thing in the Bible so far, there fore if you want to be sure you are written in the book of life you have to except by faith that God is who he said he is and except what Jesus done on the cross for us all .


God Bless You


Denis.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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