May 5, 2012 -- 3:51PM, Newtonian wrote:

57 - I can see where using that translation of Psalms 139:16 you might think that David's life was predestined - however, the verse is actually talking about DNA - God's book determining the days when the various body parts of the embryo are to be formed - and indeed that is pre-programmed and similar to predestined.

Note the context is talking about how David's body was wonderfully made while in secret as an embryo in his mother's womb:

(Psalm 139:14-16) . . .I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them. - NW

(LITV)  Your eyes saw my embryo; and in Your book all my members were written the days they were formed, and not one was yet among them.

The Hebrew word translated "embryo" is H1564 golem - from Strong's Hebrew dictionary:

H1564 גּלם gôlem go'-lem From H1563; a wrapped (and unformed mass, that is, as the embryo

Of course, golem literally means "unformed substance" as other translations render it, but in this context it is applying to the embryo as Strong's Hebrew dictionary notes.

I.e. the DNA specifies the days when the yet unformed body parts of the embryo were to be formed.  DNA is God's book written in chemical language, btw.

BINGO Newt! Thank you brother! Jehovah knows us so well he knows what we will look like before we are are born. After all He did invent DNA. There is also new evidence that a person core personality can be influenced by DNA. Correct?

You're question first:

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Now few questions for you.

Did Jehovah have to have the bible written? Did something make him do it? Could He have decided not to have the bible written?

There is no force anywhere that can make God do anything. The Word of God came through God. I certainly cannot force Him to speak, much less jot anything down.

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

1. If I knew beforehand my daughter's choice, can God know mine?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

 Did you know what career your daughter would choose when she was learning to walk? Do you know the name of the person your daughter was going to marry? According to "God knows all" then God knows these answers.

I did not know what my daughter's career would be, or whom she will marry, or even if she will marry, but God certainly does. If God doesn't know a little thing like that, then how could we possibly believe Him when he tells us Jesus will triumph over Satan? If God sees through a glass darkly, then it's possible Satan wins the war. After all, if the future is closed to Him, he really wouldn't know, would He?

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

2. If He does, do I still have free will?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: As long as you can still change your mind then yes. Like how you came to your conclusion with your daughter. Jehovah does know us very well and can guess with very good accuracy what our choices are in the near future. But he does not know the date of our death or what kind of people we will be in the far future.

So according to the Watchtower,  David's  lament is in vain:

"Lord, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am." (Psalm 39:4)

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

3. Nevertheless, does God call out to us, and attempt to influence our paths?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: Yes he does. So does Satan. Also if Jehovah knows at all times the choice a person will make, He must feel silly calling out to people in the first place. When you called out to your daughter even though you had a pretty good idea that she would not come to you did you have the hope that she would? If Jehovah knows our choices and it's going to happen no matter what, then He would have no hope for us choosing him. 

I don't understand your reasoning. Jesus calls out to us that we might answer. Whether we answer or not is up to us. Just because we do might not answer does not mean He won't call. My dad told me plenty of do's and don'ts, knowing full well I wasn't listening. But he told me anyways. When the crap came because I didn't listen, well, I learned a lesson.

What you are really saying here Mr. Jordan is this:

"If God keeps His eyes closed, there's a chance we might choose Him. But if He opens them there's no hope. So God keeps His eyes closed so we might have hope."

Why would anyone put faith in a blind God?

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

4. Can you see why, according to this "theory" we do not consider God "hands off"?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: This example is about the near future. Making a guessed prediction based on current knowledge of a person. That I do agree with. 

As 57 pointed out before, you are confusing predictions with knowledge. God knows, he doesn't predict. The Watchtower has trained your thoughts so that when you read "know" you replace it with "predict".

The two are not the same.

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

What I don't agree with is that my whole life is book already written by me or anyone.

And if your book is not written by you, then who is doing the the writing? Is it chance or fate?
Also, if you're book is not written by you,  how is it you claim free will?

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

Can God knowing beforehand all our choices and all our paths, co-exist with free will?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: No. Not if God knows those choices with 100% accuracy. Free will only works if it is not 100%.

Do you realize what you're saying here? This is what your actually saying:

"God looked into the future and told the prophets Israel would reject Him. At that point, the people of Israel lost their free will and were forced into rejecting God."

That is Watchtower logic MJ. It's not scriptural

May 6, 2012 -- 3:14AM, Theo wrote:

God's foreknowledge does not force our decisions or actions... it has no effect upon our freedom of choice at all. What it does, as far as believers are concerned, is assure our hearts of what is going to happen in the end times, and thereby builds our confidence in a God who knows the end from the beginning, and calls those things that are not, as though they were. I trust God because He knows all things, He does not predict based upon a limited knowledge, therefore I would trust Him less if He didn't know everything. I know my soul is safe in Christ, and that if tomorrow I get killed by an out of control dump-truck, it does not matter - my soul is safe in the hands of God in Christ.

It saddens me to read the rationalizations of JWs, reasoning away one of the greatest comforts believers have in God, and replacing it with a God who limits Himself so that we can make choices without his knowledge or influence. I thank God He knows my thoughts before I think them, that He knows what I am going to say before I say it, and that He knows my end, and everything in between... and I beg for His oversight, interest and influence in my life. You should too.

~ Theophilus

Theo,

I too am amazed that people can miss something as clear as this. 

How do you reach Watchtower believers who have out-sourced their critical thinking? I'm at a loss here.

And there you have the dirty little secret of many splinter sects.  The followers must be made to believe that their unsupervised personal thoughts and/or studies are dangerous and prone to satanic influence. 

May 5, 2012 -- 11:57PM, Oeste wrote:

You're question first:

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Now few questions for you.

Did Jehovah have to have the bible written? Did something make him do it? Could He have decided not to have the bible written?

There is no force anywhere that can make God do anything. The Word of God came through God. I certainly cannot force Him to speak, much less jot anything down.

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

1. If I knew beforehand my daughter's choice, can God know mine?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

 Did you know what career your daughter would choose when she was learning to walk? Do you know the name of the person your daughter was going to marry? According to "God knows all" then God knows these answers.

I did not know what my daughter's career would be, or whom she will marry, or even if she will marry, but God certainly does. If God doesn't know a little thing like that, then how could we possibly believe Him when he tells us Jesus will triumph over Satan? If God sees through a glass darkly, then it's possible Satan wins the war. After all, if the future is closed to Him, he really wouldn't know, would He?

MrJ: Jehovah has used his foreknowledge on Satan and how to defeat Satan. Long ago, Genesis 3:15. If you want an example of a being that DOES have his "book" ending known, Satan is that being. We all know that Satan will be imprisoned, let lose after 1000 years and then destroyed forever. So you see, there is no reason to be worried about Jehovah not being able to defeat Satan. Satan's future has already been foretold thus impossible for Satan to win.

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

2. If He does, do I still have free will?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: As long as you can still change your mind then yes. Like how you came to your conclusion with your daughter. Jehovah does know us very well and can guess with very good accuracy what our choices are in the near future. But he does not know the date of our death or what kind of people we will be in the far future.

So according to the Watchtower,  David's  lament is in vain:

"Lord, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am." (Psalm 39:4)

MrJ: Not sure what you are pointing to here. But I will add the verse after this one to give it more meaning. David was saying how fast it must seem to Jehovah that our lives start and end as what must seem like a single breath to Jehovah.

Psalm 39:5
"Look! You have made my days just a few;
And my life’s duration is as nothing in front of you.
Surely every earthling man, though standing firm, is nothing but an exhalation. Se′lah."

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

3. Nevertheless, does God call out to us, and attempt to influence our paths?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: Yes he does. So does Satan. Also if Jehovah knows at all times the choice a person will make, He must feel silly calling out to people in the first place. When you called out to your daughter even though you had a pretty good idea that she would not come to you did you have the hope that she would? If Jehovah knows our choices and it's going to happen no matter what, then He would have no hope for us choosing him. 

I don't understand your reasoning. Jesus calls out to us that we might answer. Whether we answer or not is up to us. Just because we do might not answer does not mean He won't call. My dad told me plenty of do's and don'ts, knowing full well I wasn't listening. But he told me anyways. When the crap came because I didn't listen, well, I learned a lesson.

What you are really saying here Mr. Jordan is this:

"If God keeps His eyes closed, there's a chance we might choose Him. But if He opens them there's no hope. So God keeps His eyes closed so we might have hope."

Why would anyone put faith in a blind God?

MrJ: Kind an odd way of saying it, but this is actually partially correct. But we do not think of Jehovah as "blind". He actually knows us very very well. Our hearts, our emotions, everything except our future path with 100% accuracy.

If Jehovah knows our future with 100% accuracy then it must come true. Because, how could it not come true if Jehovah knows it to be 100% true.

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

4. Can you see why, according to this "theory" we do not consider God "hands off"?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: This example is about the near future. Making a guessed prediction based on current knowledge of a person. That I do agree with. 

As 57 pointed out before, you are confusing predictions with knowledge. God knows, he doesn't predict. The Watchtower has trained your thoughts so that when you read "know" you replace it with "predict".

The two are not the same.

MrJ: Is Jehovah's knowledge of everyone 100% accurate? If it is, then no one can change their future.

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

What I don't agree with is that my whole life is book already written by me or anyone.

And if your book is not written by you, then who is doing the the writing? Is it chance or fate?
Also, if you're book is not written by you,  how is it you claim free will?

MrJ: It is impossiable for me or anyone to write my whole future. Were you think there is a book somewhere with my future life written down on it, I do not believe in such a book or recording.

May 4, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oeste wrote:

Can God knowing beforehand all our choices and all our paths, co-exist with free will?

May 5, 2012 -- 7:01AM, mrjordan wrote:

Mrj: No. Not if God knows those choices with 100% accuracy. Free will only works if it is not 100%.

Do you realize what you're saying here? This is what your actually saying:

"God looked into the future and told the prophets Israel would reject Him. At that point, the people of Israel lost their free will and were forced into rejecting God."

That is Watchtower logic MJ. It's not scriptural

MrJ: You got off the question here. We were not talking about Israel's future. We were talking about just an indivdual's future.

If Jehovah knows everyone's future judgement with 100% certainty then why wait for Judgement? Why wait thousands of years? Why not today? What is He waiting for?