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Switch to Forum Live View Do we pray to same God?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 6:16PM #21
Ibn
Posts: 4,939

Jun 6, 2012 -- 10:06AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


So, tWhe consensus of believers in this thread is that is that "WE ALL DO PRAY TO THE "SAME" GOD.


But "WE" do not have a consensus on doctrines and dogmas of religion.


It's because you (generic) can't shape God to your liking or create different Gods but can change doctines and dogmas of religion to your liking. 


Jun 6, 2012 -- 10:06AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

"WE" also do not have a consensus on what is the "TRUE" religion or "TRUE" scriptures. 


"True religion" is the religion given to mankind by God and "true scriptures" is everything revealed to mankind through His messengers (both human and others).


Peace


Ibn 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2012 - 3:54PM #22
TRUECHRISTIAN
Posts: 1,219

 


Jun 6, 2012 -- 10:06AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


So, tWhe consensus of believers in this thread is that is that "WE ALL DO PRAY TO THE "SAME" GOD.


But "WE" do not have a consensus on doctrines and dogmas of religion. 


"WE" also do not have a consensus on what is the "TRUE" religion or "TRUE" scriptures. 


 



Jun 6, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Perhaps the latter two aren't as important to God as they are to you.


With kind regards,


Wabbit




Or "perhaps" the latter two are as important to God as they are to me.


"Perhaps"  the Trinty doctrine isn't important to God either. 


But doctrines and dogmas of religion ARE important to varying degrees to those who believe them. 


I feel fairly certain that the doctrines and dogmas of your religion, are important to you.  




 

I could be wrong.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2012 - 6:59PM #23
visio
Posts: 3,393

Jun 6, 2012 -- 10:06AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


So, tWhe consensus of believers in this thread is that is that "WE ALL DO PRAY TO THE "SAME" GOD.


But "WE" do not have a consensus on doctrines and dogmas of religion. 


"WE" also do not have a consensus on what is the "TRUE" religion or "TRUE" scriptures. 


 




Within our faith, backed up by its revealed doctrines and what had evolved as its logics and dogmas, we can say that those who believe in them have consensus that we (Muslims) pray to the same THAT ONE GOD/ALLAHswt that our individuated soul would return to, meet and know when we die as they ( individuated soul) were created the First Time:


Al-Kahf 18 : 48   And they (the departed soul, separated from the spirit/mind principle and material bodies) will be set for your Lord in rows, (and THAT ONE ALLAHswt will say) : "Now indeed, you have come to US as WE created (each of individuated) you the First Time.    Nay, but you thought that We had appointed no meeting for you (with US)?"


[Those in the brackets are my words]


There is no Muhammad, no Moses, no Jesus, no YHWH, no Brahman, no Buddha mentioned in the verse.   The We, US  are just the veilings (to be witnessed) of THAT ONE we, Muslims, are in consensus, to indicate as ALLAHswt, after the perfect sound of our Last Breath (which is different from our First Breath) that each Muslim is to perfect thru their worship & prayer and zikrullah i.e. the daily salat - a devotional training to tune both the spirit/mind complex as well as the material body complex.


As a Muslim I could only explain our doctrine and dogmas as presented in the description such as the above verse of the Al-Quran.   It is not for me and us (Muslims) to say wether we are in consensus with your faith or religion unless of course you can explain/rationalise the whole picture spiritual view of the cosmos as written in your scriptures. We can only leave you to think and make your own self judgement wether you are in consensus with us or no.


If you are a Christian, I would like to first ask you - within Christianity do you have a consensus of to which God you pray to, worship to and return to?   It appeared to me that after reading just a few posts, posted so far, you came in here and jumped to a kind of conclusion that believers (of what?) are in consensus.   Things are not as simple as the trinity doctrine that Christians have been disputing about for the last 2000 years, I am afraid to say.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 2:09AM #24
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,901

Jun 8, 2012 -- 3:54PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


I feel fairly certain that the doctrines and dogmas of your religion, are important to you. 




You mean the "dogma" that God is not a cruel monstrosity who allows people to suffer eternal damnation for believing in Him more monotheistically than a True Christian? Yes, this dogma is important to me.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 4:14PM #25
Aka_me
Posts: 12,292

if a person who speaks spanish were to argue with a person who speaks german that sol is not the same thing as sonne... the spanish speaker would say that sol causes skin cancer and is bad. the german speaker would say that sonne helps the body create vitamin D and is benefitial.


if one is good and other is bad, they can't be the same thing, they conclude.


just because one religion focuses on a subset of attributes, which are different from another religion's subset of attributes...


in no way shape or form changes the fact that God is beyond human comprehension.


to say "there is only one sun", and agree with someone who is also saying "there is only one sun".


pretty much IMPLIES both people are talking about the SAME one sun.


how could two people be talking about two different "one sun"?


it is inherently impossible.


it's the mere trivialities of details which get debated... how much UV is too much, risk of skin cancer, and recommended daily allowance of vitamin D.


but no one argues two different suns.

The UN says the ebola outbreak must be controlled within 60 days or else the world faces an "unprecedented" situation for which there is no plan.
this is absolutely fantastic as it unites the world into being OUR problem rather than THEIR problem.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 4:34PM #26
Ibn
Posts: 4,939

Jun 9, 2012 -- 4:14PM, Aka_me wrote:


just because one religion focuses on a subset of attributes, which are different from another religion's subset of attributes...


in no way shape or form changes the fact that God is beyond human comprehension.



in no way shape or form one is trying to comprehend God when praying to God.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 1:40PM #27
sallum
Posts: 551

Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:11PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Miraj


It is all part of the free expression of ideas thing. Although, I have to agree that the author is something of an idiot. 


First of all there are many meanings of : pray to God.


Pray could means ASK, pray could means act against demand,(comply) also could means mentioning the Lord, thanking the Lord,… communicate with the lord…  breaking the blackout of man’s daily activities. (Break). Etc,.


 


. Also each of the prayers has different weight in its one custom for example; pray to ask God @ disaster is different @ ask to keep the good health. While both are @ a request.


In general all are prayer..


Now when a man pray to God @ a very bad segment up to death, come to an end of life or come to an end of life’s tools, prosperities, and @ a lost of most valuable issues, for example; ship or airplane moments before crash, winds and huge waves are stormed the vessel, chance to survive is zero.


 


 HERE with such situation man will pray for one only God, God who is the most powerful the strongest the ONE who has all things controlled in HIS Hand.  WHO has life and death.


 


The “victim“will see one God, God who has the power and mercy. Only True God is with these belongings.  They ONLY can think this way, so they pray to The True GOD. Using- by nature-  the right thinking.


 


Other than that positions people will pray to different Lord. And most of the people do not pray at all, BUT only @ harm hard cases they by nature state a wide prayer,.. soon they forget what they beg and plead.


 since the below great verse has wide explanation I meant ot give the different translations


17:67 (Asad) And whenever danger befalls you at sea, all those (powers] that you are wont to invoke forsake you, [and nothing remains for you] save Him: but as soon as He has brought you safe ashore, you turn aside [and forget Him]-for, indeed, bereft of all gratitude is man! -  


 


17:67 (Picktall) And when harm toucheth you upon the sea, all unto whom ye cry (for succour) fail save Him (alone), but when He bringeth you safe to land, ye turn away, for man was ever thankless. -   


 


17:67 (Y. Ali) When distress seizes you at sea, those that ye call upon - besides Himself - leave you in the lurch! but when He brings you back safe to land, ye turn away (from Him). Most ungrateful is man!


 


 31:32 When a wave covers them like the canopy (of clouds), they call to Allah, offering Him sincere devotion. But when He has delivered them safely to land, there are among them those that halt between (right and wrong). But none reject Our Signs except only a perfidious ungrateful (wretch)!.


if you have a chance to question a surviver or you personly got experiece you would understand this post.


 


I thank Allah that put me with Islam.


Alhamdu lil lahi alAAluyou Alkabeer.


sallum

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 9:57PM #28
visio
Posts: 3,393

Jun 12, 2012 -- 1:40PM, sallum wrote:

Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:11PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


It is all part of the free expression of ideas thing. Although, I have to agree that the author is something of an idiot. 




First of all there are many meanings of : pray to God.


Pray could means ASK, pray could means act against demand,(comply) also could means mentioning the Lord, thanking the Lord,… communicate with the lord…  breaking the blackout of man’s daily activities. (Break). Etc,.


 


. Also each of the prayers has different weight in its one custom for example; pray to ask God @ disaster is different @ ask to keep the good health. While both are @ a request.


In general all are prayer..


Now when a man pray to God @ a very bad segment up to death, come to an end of life or come to an end of life’s tools, prosperities, and @ a lost of most valuable issues, for example; ship or airplane moments before crash, winds and huge waves are stormed the vessel, chance to survive is zero.


 


 HERE with such situation man will pray for one only God, God who is the most powerful the strongest the ONE who has all things controlled in HIS Hand.  WHO has life and death.


 


The “victim“will see one God, God who has the power and mercy. Only True God is with these belongings.  They ONLY can think this way, so they pray to The True GOD. Using- by nature-  the right thinking.


 


Other than that positions people will pray to different Lord. And most of the people do not pray at all, BUT only @ harm hard cases they by nature state a wide prayer,.. soon they forget what they beg and plead.


 since the below great verse has wide explanation I meant ot give the different translations


17:67 (Asad) And whenever danger befalls you at sea, all those (powers] that you are wont to invoke forsake you, [and nothing remains for you] save Him: but as soon as He has brought you safe ashore, you turn aside [and forget Him]-for, indeed, bereft of all gratitude is man! -  


 


17:67 (Picktall) And when harm toucheth you upon the sea, all unto whom ye cry (for succour) fail save Him (alone), but when He bringeth you safe to land, ye turn away, for man was ever thankless. -   


 


17:67 (Y. Ali) When distress seizes you at sea, those that ye call upon - besides Himself - leave you in the lurch! but when He brings you back safe to land, ye turn away (from Him). Most ungrateful is man!


 


 31:32 When a wave covers them like the canopy (of clouds), they call to Allah, offering Him sincere devotion. But when He has delivered them safely to land, there are among them those that halt between (right and wrong). But none reject Our Signs except only a perfidious ungrateful (wretch)!.


if you have a chance to question a surviver or you personly got experiece you would understand this post.


 


I thank Allah that put me with Islam.


Alhamdu lil lahi alAAluyou Alkabeer.


sallum




Actually, the English word prayer itself is in need of a new definition that is more specific and not subjective.   In Islam the the whole ritual/flow movements of the salats there are elements of supplication, expressing thanks to ALLAHswt and also most importantly training of our whole being (soul, inherited spirit/mind and body) for a perfect submission and surrender - i.e of our last breath, when the time finally comes, in this lifetime.  For example :  we train ourselves to recite some of those passages in a single breath and breathlessly as naturally as we possibly can.  It is in the same manner as we perform our zikr, tasbih & tahmid.  Practising to repeat the various words singly 33 times breathlessly.  This would condition our throat meachanism into a perfect orientation/health to allow the soul to rise to our head crown and leave the body.   It is by the same kind of principle used by spiritual yogii in Hinduism but of course in Islam/Quran the Tawhid is different.   The salat is the progressive, evolutionary, slow and safest was prescribed to us, mankind, by ALLAHswt. This is the shariat for even the low average among mankind.   Otherwise, Muhammadsaw could have teach us the process he used when he first encounterd Gabriel up in the cave.  That process was only achieveable only by a few.  Many fell of tracks.




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