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5 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 5:49PM #81
Ed.W
Posts: 9,451

May 9, 2012 -- 5:10PM, Seefan wrote:



The bottom line is that if Christ/Word is an expression as you say that does not mean Jesus is God but an 'expression' thereof ...


 


(emphasis added by Ed.W)
 




The light is an analogy.  Jesus is not photons.  Light is Truth, God himself.  Not the substance between God and man as in the sunlight.


The Expression of God is God.  You're are using a colloquial use of the word expression, and I'm using a more etymological use of it.


It's hard to find an example besides Jesus/God.  Maybe the way a fluttering flag is the expression of wind.  It allows us to "see" wind.  But Jesus is not the flag.  God is invisible, but Jesus is the expression of the invisible.  Not temporarily, but for all time.


I could use an electron microscope to describe expression, which really doesn't "see" what it magnifies.  But I don't want to say the image electronically created is the thing being looked at.  Jesus is the thing being looked at.  God doesn't need the intermediate of the microscope to show himself.  Therefore Jesus, unlike the image created by the microscope, is not a facsimile of a distant reality.





‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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5 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 6:20PM #82
57
Posts: 28,191

May 9, 2012 -- 3:58PM, Seefan wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 3:09PM, 57 wrote:

  Where does the bible say the Word represented God? 


Why does everyone who wants to strip Jesus of his divinity have to come up with some sort of bazaar interpretation to make their point? 


Just read it. Don't add to it.  The Word was God.  Whether it is logical or illogical to YOU has no bearing on it. 



No one is stripping Jesus of anything but making His station clearer to those who don't understand.  You seem to like Strong's dictionary so I'll post what it says for your consideration: 


3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.


[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]


 


Basically what Strong's saying is the word is expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit (the Christ Spirit), that Jesus was sharing a message, that what Jesus said was the Word of God which was given to humanity through Him.  God can't be contained within a created thing.  Don't you get that?  It's the same as Jesus representing God ...


Unless you have something different, let's leave it at that ...


 


 




Seefan...it takes more than that.


Rev 19:13.


He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.


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5 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 6:22PM #83
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

May 9, 2012 -- 5:49PM, Ed.W wrote:

 

May 9, 2012 -- 5:10PM, Seefan wrote:


The bottom line is that if Christ/Word is an expression as you say that does not mean Jesus is God but an 'expression' thereof ...


(emphasis added by Ed.W)  



The light is an analogy.  Jesus is not photons.  Light is Truth, God himself.  Not the substance between God and man as in the sunlight.


God is not Truth!  Truth is a quality of God ...


The Expression of God is God.  You're are using a colloquial use of the word expression, and I'm using a more etymological use of it.


No matter which way you look at it an expression is not God but an expression ...


It's hard to find an example besides Jesus/God.  Maybe the way a fluttering flag is the expression of wind.  It allows us to "see" wind.  But Jesus is not the flag.  God is invisible, but Jesus is the expression of the invisible.  Not temporarily, but for all time.


God's invisibility is a quality of God because of His nature - He is the Uncreated which does not manifest itself into a created form!  And you are right but only in the sense that the Christ Spirit within Jesus is an expression of God, not God Himself ...


I could use an electron microscope to describe expression, which really doesn't "see" what it magnifies.  But I don't want to say the image electronically created is the thing being looked at.  Jesus is the thing being looked at. 


If we can see Jesus He is a created entity and not the Uncreated, therefore He is not God ...


God doesn't need the intermediate of the microscope to show himself. 


Maybe not!  But if He is to get His desire known to humanity, He does need an intermediary so we know what He wants.   A Painter is not His painting for it is a creation, a reflection of His something he wants us to know.  Similarly, God cannot show Himself within His creation for He is the Uncreated!  To create Himself into a finite form would limit His nature and of necessity, He would cease to be God.  When you say Jesus is God you don't raise Jesus up but put God down ...


Therefore Jesus, unlike the image created by the microscope, is not a facsimile of a distant reality.


Jesus is a created entity but the Christ Spirit within Jesus was capable of reflecting Divinity.  When Jesus spoke it was as if God spoke.  But Jesus is/was not God!  The bibler makes that very clear ... 





In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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5 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 6:23PM #84
57
Posts: 28,191

May 9, 2012 -- 5:10PM, Seefan wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 4:30PM, Ed.W wrote:


3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.



The Logos will never be done justice with a three line definition.  It has a very heavy, deep, and nuanced definition at least as it pertains to the incarnation.


I noticed the words you emphasized above.  The word you should have seized upon was "expression".  And then you need to carefully consider what expression and expressing means. 


I.e, it should say expressing the thoughts, not, expressing the thoughts


It basically means that Jesus is the outward (direct, not reflected) image of the invisible God.  It goes much further than a perfect reflection.  Where a mirror is not the actual source of what it reflects, Jesus is the Light. 



I have no problem with that Ed!  Actually the Baha'i Faith gives the analogy of the Sun (God) emitting light to humanity through its rays (Holy Spirit), down to earth.  These rays are reflected as within a perfectly polished mirror (Christ) so it would appear that it is actual the sun.  The rays are an emanation from the sun and are not the sun in the same way the Word is as if it was God but it emanates from God and is not God ...


This is the meaning of the incarnation for as I said to 57, the Uncreated cannot manifest itself into the created!  The Creator cannot become His creation!  To be otherwise that would put limits on God and that would not match the definition the bible gives.  The OT says:  "To see God is to die" or something like that.  Another was of saying what I've said ...


The bottom line is that if Christ/Word is an expression as you say that does not mean Jesus is God but an 'expression' thereof ...


 



 




What seefan fails to realize is that Jesus was fully 100% God and fully 100% man. 


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5 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 6:28PM #85
57
Posts: 28,191

Sefan,


When will you show us that Jesus...A.K.A., the Word that became flesh was created. 


Also, where does the bible say God can't empty himself  and take on the form of a man?

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5 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 8:32PM #86
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

May 9, 2012 -- 6:28PM, 57 wrote:


Sefan,


When will you show us that Jesus...A.K.A., the Word that became flesh was created. 


Also, where does the bible say God can't empty himself  and take on the form of a man?





Better still where does it say God can?

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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5 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 8:37PM #87
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

May 9, 2012 -- 6:20PM, 57 wrote:

Basically what Strong's saying is the word is expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit (the Christ Spirit), that Jesus was sharing a message, that what Jesus said was the Word of God which was given to humanity through Him. God can't be contained within a created thing. Don't you get that? It's the same as Jesus representing God ...


Unless you have something different, let's leave it at that ...



Seefan...it takes more than that. Rev 19:13.


He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.



Well 57 I have to say you certainly are persistence!  Not that I’m that well versed but let’s look at Revelations for it is a very important book of scripture and says alot.  Let’s see how my understanding applies to what you’ve posted concerning the Word of God!  I’m sorry but I need to go back into rev for a little background.  Sorry it can’t be a one liner ...


Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven candlesticks One like unto the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the breast with a golden girdle.  14 His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 and His feet like unto fine brass, as though they burned in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And He had in His right hand seven stars, and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword, and His countenance shone as the sun shineth in his strength.


 


You will notice how "one like the Son of Man" (Jesus) is being described – eyes were like blazing fire.  Feet glowing like a furnace.  The whiteness is really emphasized – white like wool and white as snow.  This very important!  I’ll explain momentarily ...


Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the First and the Last.  18 I am He that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore ...


This verse is not talking about Jesus but it refers to "One like unto" Jesus ...


Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it.


Now you read that this same Spirit "One like Jesus", will give a new name to only those who follow the Spirit, who follow that one like unto Jesus ...


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God, and I will write upon him My new name.13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches!’


Here the Spirit continues to tell those who will listen that they will receive a new name.  The name New Jerusalem refers to the new revelation which Jesus promised when the Return comes  ...


Rev 14:1  And I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000, having His Father’s name written in their foreheads.  2 And I heard a voice from Heaven as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps.  3 And they sang, as it were, a new song before the throne, and before the four living beings and the elders; and no man could learn that song, except the hundred and forty and four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.


 


In rev 14 the scene changes a bit.  The 144,000 is encrypted to mean those who accept and are followers of the Return Jesus promised, the ninth Manifestation of God to appear in that day – 1+4+4 = 9.  The Father’s name is not God’s name but the One like unto Jesus who came in the station of the Father.  In the bible the name Father is used in two ways – as God the Father and as the one who will Return in the station of the Father.  Jesus came in the station of the Son and the return He spoke of in the bible referred to the Comforter with ‘further’ truth.  Verse 3 tells us it will be as a new song, a new revelation and only those 144,000, the followers of the ninth Manifestation of God that Jesus foretold, will understand ...


Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written that no man knew, but He Himself.  13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His name is called, The Word of God.


Notice the description prior to the verse you’ve posted.  His eyes are like blazing fire is quite reminiscent of Rev 1:14.  Actually the same!  So this quote is not referring to Jesus but to the One like unto Jesus who comes with a new name singing a new song – not the same revelation Jesus revealed.  If interested, His name is ........ (I took His name out for that might be considered proselytizing and that's not my intent).  During his lifetime He was called by the people, not His followers, as the ‘Father’.  He was imprisoned when He first declared His mission and when He was released His hair was a ‘white as snow’. 


The "Word of God" applies to all of God’s Holy Manifestations who appear from age to age with a new revelation.  It is part of Their station!  This is the answer to your post!  Hopefully it help your understanding at some point in your search for Truth  ...


Much of my understanding comes from a book called: New Keys To The Book Of Revelation by Ruth J. Moffett, for those who might be interested ........

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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