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Switch to Forum Live View Do we pray to same God?
6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 10:09AM #71
amcolph
Posts: 20,246

Apr 29, 2012 -- 3:54PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

 

 
The Quran also is highly critical of Christians and Jews. Some quotes include: "Jews and Christians are evil-livers,” "Evil is the handwork of rabbis and priests,” "Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do Allah will consider you to be one of them."

 




These are mis-quotes which I have been able to trace so far only to psuedo-Christian cult websites.


For example, "Evil is the handwork of rabbis and priests" is from Sura 5:63 and is generally rendered by reputable translators as,


"Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evil-speaking and their devouring of illicit gain? Verily evil is their handiwork."


The "their" referring not to the rabbis and priests themselves but to evildoers in their flocks. 


If you are going to condemn Islam on the basis of the Koran, you need a source which quotes it accurately

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6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 2:04PM #72
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,796

You know the topic is "Do we pray to the say god?" But really it is irrelevant. It is an interesting intellectual discussion, but matters little in the way people treat each other.


Who one prays to or worships seems to have very little affect on how kind or how nasty someone is going to be. Nasty people find justification in their holy writ for being nasty, so do kind people.


Religion might make people better, or worse. But generally a person is still going to be who they are, unless they have a mental illness.


People choose the religion, or part of a religion that suite their personality.  How you pray or whom you worship says little about the Deity. And much about the person.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 4:46PM #73
57
Posts: 28,191

May 6, 2012 -- 3:49PM, Seefan wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 8:21AM, 57 wrote:

I don't care...anymore... because your point was not made. Sorry. There is no use in arguing with you on this topic. Your mind is closed.


If Jesus Christ is just a mere reflection to you...rather than actually radiating His Divinity as the second part of the Godhead then it appears you are following a different Jesus than me. My Jesus is GOD! Who is your Jesus?



I believe my point was made quite well!


Sorry, but I didn't.  The word used was radiate.  Even strongs used said so. You choose some obscure meaning, usage of the word.  I understand you have to weaken Jesus to non-divine and MUST use this word despite all the other verses that clearly claim divinity for Jesus.


  Jesus Christ is the Glory of God who emitted God’s divine qualities through His life and teachings!  In this ‘station’ Jesus, given the title the Son of God, was given the ability to 'radiate' His Divinity –


Chapter and verse please to support that. 


in the sense that Jesus had divine qualities as the bible points out, is below God in stature, but is above all other human being, being the Perfect Man. 


Phil 2:6 says Jesus was equal to God...Not below God.


What you say about Jesus radiating divine qualities certainly is true but for God, the Uncreated, the Infinite, to personally manifest Himself into His created world cannot be.  It would be far, far easier to combine water and oil to form a cohesive mixture or to take the sun out of the universe into the Uncreated world of God.  For God to manifest His qualities for the benefit of humanity and creation, a created being is needed.  The created and Uncreated cannot become one.


Jesus..the Alpha and Omega was created? Jesus who created all things was created?  Certainly tou don't mean that?


  God’s vehicle used for this task to take place was Jesus, the Perfect Man.  This does not take away from Jesus but explains His divinity and reality.  While the Christ spirit comes from God and is an emanation of God it is not the essence of God ...


You mention I follow a different Jesus than you.  Jesus is Jesus so let’s say that my understanding of Jesus is different than yours, especially in this one area.


Then you follow a false Jesus. Like the Mormons as well as the JW you follow a Jesus that was created..when Jesus was not created.  


You’ve asked who is ‘my’ Jesus?  I believe my Jesus to be the Jesus described in the bible ...


As to God there is only One God and of creation was created by Him, including the Perfect Man, Jesus ...


The bible in several places says Jesus was the creator.  To be honest i don't know what Jesus you are following.  i do know it is not the Jesus of the bible. 



Once again...where does the bible say Jesus was created?


 


 





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6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 8:09PM #74
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

May 7, 2012 -- 4:46PM, 57 wrote:


Once again...where does the bible say Jesus was created?



Born of the virgin Mary .....


This is the only other point I didn't already address in previous posts ...



 

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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6 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:55PM #75
57
Posts: 28,191

May 7, 2012 -- 8:09PM, Seefan wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 4:46PM, 57 wrote:


Once again...where does the bible say Jesus was created?



Born of the virgin Mary .....


This is the only other point I didn't already address in previous posts ...



 




yeah, that's the part where the Word became flesh. 


Remember the Word was with God and the Word was God. 

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6 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 4:42PM #76
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

May 8, 2012 -- 2:55PM, 57 wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 8:09PM, Seefan wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 4:46PM, 57 wrote:

Once again...where does the bible say Jesus was created?



Born of the virgin Mary ..... This is the only other point I didn't already address in previous posts ...



yeah, that's the part where the Word became flesh.


Remember the Word was with God and the Word was God.



Exactly!  But what does that actually mean?  Jesus was given a Revelation from God conveyed through the Holy Spirit.  This revelation was contained within the Christ.  The station of the Christ Spirit within Jesus that made the divine connection He had to the Divine was known as the Word. The station of the Christ as the Word is not to be taken literally as being God for you cannot take the infinite and contain it within a created thing.  And absolutely everything within creation is created!  The Word was with God and the Word was God is in conflict if taken literally.  It would be illogical!  It means that the Word represented God therefore would appear to man was as if it was God for it was a perfect reflection, a mirrored image of what it was designed by God to represent ...

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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6 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 3:09PM #77
57
Posts: 28,191

May 8, 2012 -- 4:42PM, Seefan wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 2:55PM, 57 wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 8:09PM, Seefan wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 4:46PM, 57 wrote:

Once again...where does the bible say Jesus was created?



Born of the virgin Mary ..... This is the only other point I didn't already address in previous posts ...



yeah, that's the part where the Word became flesh.


Remember the Word was with God and the Word was God.



Exactly!  But what does that actually mean?  Jesus was given a Revelation from God conveyed through the Holy Spirit.  This revelation was contained within the Christ.  The station of the Christ Spirit within Jesus that made the divine connection He had to the Divine was known as the Word. The station of the Christ as the Word is not to be taken literally as being God for you cannot take the infinite and contain it within a created thing.  And absolutely everything within creation is created!  The Word was with God and the Word was God is in conflict if taken literally.  It would be illogical!  It means that the Word represented God therefore would appear to man was as if it was God for it was a perfect reflection, a mirrored image of what it was designed by God to represent ...




Where does the bible say the Word represented God? 


Why does everyone who wants to strip Jesus of his divinity have to come up with some sort of bazaar interpretation to make their point? 


Just read it. Don't add to it.  The Word was God.  Whether it is logical or illogical to YOU has no bearing on it. 

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6 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 3:58PM #78
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

May 9, 2012 -- 3:09PM, 57 wrote:

  Where does the bible say the Word represented God? 


Why does everyone who wants to strip Jesus of his divinity have to come up with some sort of bazaar interpretation to make their point? 


Just read it. Don't add to it.  The Word was God.  Whether it is logical or illogical to YOU has no bearing on it. 



No one is stripping Jesus of anything but making His station clearer to those who don't understand.  You seem to like Strong's dictionary so I'll post what it says for your consideration: 


3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.


[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]


 


Basically what Strong's saying is the word is expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit (the Christ Spirit), that Jesus was sharing a message, that what Jesus said was the Word of God which was given to humanity through Him.  God can't be contained within a created thing.  Don't you get that?  It's the same as Jesus representing God ...


Unless you have something different, let's leave it at that ...


 


 

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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6 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 4:30PM #79
Ed.W
Posts: 9,451


3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.





The Logos will never be done justice with a three line definition.  It has a very heavy, deep, and nuanced definition at least as it pertains to the incarnation.


I noticed the words you emphasized above.  The word you should have seized upon was "expression".  And then you need to carefully consider what expression and expressing means. 


I.e, it should say expressing the thoughts, not, expressing the thoughts


It basically means that Jesus is the outward (direct, not reflected) image of the invisible God.  It goes much further than a perfect reflection.  Where a mirror is not the actual source of what it reflects, Jesus is the Light. 



‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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6 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 5:10PM #80
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

May 9, 2012 -- 4:30PM, Ed.W wrote:


3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.



The Logos will never be done justice with a three line definition.  It has a very heavy, deep, and nuanced definition at least as it pertains to the incarnation.


I noticed the words you emphasized above.  The word you should have seized upon was "expression".  And then you need to carefully consider what expression and expressing means. 


I.e, it should say expressing the thoughts, not, expressing the thoughts


It basically means that Jesus is the outward (direct, not reflected) image of the invisible God.  It goes much further than a perfect reflection.  Where a mirror is not the actual source of what it reflects, Jesus is the Light. 



I have no problem with that Ed!  Actually the Baha'i Faith gives the analogy of the Sun (God) emitting light to humanity through its rays (Holy Spirit), down to earth.  These rays are reflected as within a perfectly polished mirror (Christ) so it would appear that it is actual the sun.  The rays are an emanation from the sun and are not the sun in the same way the Word is as if it was God but it emanates from God and is not God ...


This is the meaning of the incarnation for as I said to 57, the Uncreated cannot manifest itself into the created!  The Creator cannot become His creation!  To be otherwise that would put limits on God and that would not match the definition the bible gives.  The OT says:  "To see God is to die" or something like that.  Another was of saying what I've said ...


The bottom line is that if Christ/Word is an expression as you say that does not mean Jesus is God but an 'expression' thereof ...


 



 

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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