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Switch to Forum Live View Do we pray to same God?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 11:06AM #11
Seefan
Posts: 3,972

Apr 29, 2012 -- 8:38PM, Ed.W wrote:

 

Apr 29, 2012 -- 8:26PM, Seefan wrote:


Apr 29, 2012 -- 5:44PM, 57 wrote:

 

Apr 29, 2012 -- 4:50PM, Ed.W wrote:


I can say this coffee mug is the "one God", and tell you I pray to the "one God" without mentioning that He is a coffee mug, are we praying to the same God or not? 



Have you seen the mug of God?  If so, how can that be?  Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." 




In post #2 you say JC is God.  So now you are saying the JC can't be God for the people of the day could see JC!  How can this be? Undecided  



Jesus had a human face, he was what we call a God-man.  Don't be silly, be a good Baha'i and see what your messenger wants. 


Oh...he wants one single world religion?  How silly.  Our God despises religion.  Yours doesn't?  You must have a different God. 



Religion is meant to be a way of acquiring deeper knowledge of who God is but in a progressive manner.  There is only one God, one humanity and the 'foundation" of religion is also one.  In as much as there is only one God who has created creation, that God protects all.  And we are the servants of that one God!  God doesn't change!  He is the same today, as yesterday, and will continue to be tomorrow.  But humanity's understanding grows, develops and indeed changes in a progressive manner.  The problem is that we see God from our own finite and limited eyes and experiences and think we know Him.  All differences comes from our incomplete understandings of who and what this 'Unknowable' Essence is ...



 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:38PM #12
Ed.W
Posts: 9,447

Not only does your OneGodTM like religion, he she or it is UnknowableTM...


Wiki>Baha'i: Though inaccessible directly, God is nevertheless seen as conscious of creation,


As you see this religion teaches you to not know God. Surprised


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Seefan wrote:



Religion is meant to be a way of acquiring deeper knowledge of who God is but in a progressive manner. 




Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.  (James 1,27)


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Seefan wrote:


The problem is that we see God from our own finite and limited eyes and experiences and think we know Him.  




(Speak for yourself, please.)  Christians know that they know that they know.  We do not 'think' we know; we are not deluded or misguided.  We know God through the Person of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.  Those aren't just words, but you will likely take them as such.


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Seefan wrote:


All differences comes from our incomplete understandings of who and what this 'Unknowable' Essence is ...



 




Thine habitation [is] in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.  (Jer 9,6)


And I will give them an heart to know me, that I [am] the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.  (Jer 24,7)


if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.  (John 8,19)


And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.  (Jer 31,34--Heb 8,11)



Religion invariably leads to idolatry.  Religion will put you in Hell faster than liquor.


‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 8:10PM #13
MMarcoe
Posts: 17,672

Apr 29, 2012 -- 4:40PM, 57 wrote:



The answer is rater obvious to me.   The christians accept the biblical fact that Jesus is God.  The muslims don't.


Now, if the christians say Jesus is God and the muslims don't...then obviously they are different  Gods. 


The christian God is a Trinity...The muslim god isn't.   They are not the same.





They are the same god regardless of what Christians and Muslims believe.


God is not contained within belief. An "elect" person such as yourself should understand this, but clearly you don't. If you did understand it, you would see how Christians and Muslims could pray to the same god but have different beliefs about Him.


 

1. Extremists think that thinking means agreeing with them.
2. There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
3. God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 9:27PM #14
Seefan
Posts: 3,972

Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:38PM, Ed.W wrote:

  Not only does your OneGodTM like religion, he she or it is UnknowableTM...


I’m not sure what you are talking about here – The OneGod likes religion?  So does James if its pure!  And this is exactly what the religion I belong to teach and put a lot of emphasis on this understanding about religion.  Yes God likes religion.  It’s His method of teaching humanity what they need to know. 


Keep in mind that I said an Unknowable "Essence"!  Essence would be God’s inner core and substance without which God could not exist.  That doesn’t mean we can’t know about God and His attributes through His Manifestation such as Jesus and Baha’u’llah since you are being critical of the Baha’i Faith and to name two Manifestations of God, equal in stature as all of them are.


Wiki>Baha'i: Though inaccessible directly, God is nevertheless seen as conscious of creation,


As you see this religion teaches you to not know God.  


I’ve read a number of your post and I know your analytical skill are better than this?  My religion does not say that at all!  The God of my understanding is not only conscious of creation but He is also a personal God in the sense that God who has a Mind, a Will, and a Purpose for creation and gives it direction, again only through His Manifestations who reveal a revelation to mankind at the beginning of each age in human development allowing an ever progressing civilization to continue its advancement. 


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Seefan wrote:

  Religion is meant to be a way of acquiring deeper knowledge of who God is but in a progressive manner.  



Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1,27)


James does not oppose what I said??


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Seefan wrote:


The problem is that we see God from our own finite and limited eyes and experiences and think we know Him. 



(Speak for yourself, please.)


So are you suggesting that you have an infinite knowledge of God and believe you know all just by reading the bible? Your mind is that great?


Christians know that they know that they know. We do not 'think' we know; we are not deluded or misguided. We know God through the Person of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. Those aren't just words, but you will likely take them as such.


Actually I agree 100% with what you’ve said here about Jesus Christ.  They aren’t just words but a spiritual reality.  And I agree that Christians know that they know that they know.  The problem is that they don’t know what they don’t know and probably many don’t care because if it is true what you say they think they know all.  But it is quite possible that this mentality was the same as 2000 yrs ago where the Jews of the day through they knew that they knew what they knew and Jesus died on the cross ...


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Seefan wrote:

  All differences comes from our incomplete understandings of who and what this 'Unknowable' Essence is ... 



Thine habitation [is] in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD. (Jer 9,6)


And I will give them an heart to know me, that I [am] the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. (Jer 24,7)


if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (John 8,19)


And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (Jer 31,34--Heb 8,11)


All of these reading relate to qualities and attributes of God and not His Essence.  And I agree with what the authors have said for the time it was written ...


Religion invariably leads to idolatry. Religion will put you in Hell faster than liquor.


James didn’t seem to put religion in the same category as you.  In the reading you’ve posted from James 1:27, it should have been clear that there are two types of religion, what James calls pure religion and what you refer to as religion leading to hell.  And this is what we see in much of the so called religions of today.  It is the signs of the decaying process that all religions go through!  And this is the very reason religion is revived at the beginning of every age by the appearance of One like unto Jesus, as revelation discusses.  This renewal is begun at the beginning of each age in a progressive manner and is called "progressive revelation".  That’s why Moses came – to renew the teachings of Abraham.  That’s why Jesus came – to renew the teachings of Moses.  And that’s why Jesus promised another to come after Him ... 



Just an observation but you seem to contradict yourself a bit as pointed out.  Also in your previous post to me you say your God hates religion but this is not indicated by James or are there passages you’d like to post that shows this hatred and maybe we can discuss them?


Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:07AM #15
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,524

rocketjsquirell:  The "Shahada," which is the statement of faith for the followers of Allah, reads, "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." This statement clearly differentiates Allah from any other "god."


I don't see how it does.  As Yahweh had multiple names, arguing "Allah" makes Him different seems weird.  And arguing no one else listens to the Prophet is weird because supposedly nobody listened to all the other ones, neither.


So much for Islam's tolerance of other religions.


Judaism and Christianity can talk about that when they apologize for wanting other groups dead, whether Jews killed pagans, Christians killed Jews, or Christians killed pagans.


Some quotes include: "Jews and Christians are evil-livers,” "Evil is the handwork of rabbis and priests,” "Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do Allah will consider you to be one of them."


IIRC, the context was Jews and Christians stopped being somewhat pleasant to be around and Muhammad didn't take it very well.  Christians were a bit bitter about Jews as well.  Jews didn't really like Christianity much, neither.


Fundamental values for Christians and Jews include forgiveness, in addition to prohibitions against lying, adultery, and murder.


Until it's convenient for a biblical plotline, right?


While anyone is free to leave Christianity or Judaism, if a Muslim leaves the faith, or criticizes Allah, a fatwa is issued for their execution.


I'm pretty sure the OT and the NT aren't as generous as you're describing.


These distinctions make it clear Allah is a separate deity, with fundamentally different values, and has nothing in common with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


All it shows is that Muslims are a bit more upfront and honest about how they feel about others.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:57AM #16
Seefan
Posts: 3,972

Apr 29, 2012 -- 3:54PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

  While anyone is free to leave Christianity or Judaism, if a Muslim leaves the faith, or criticizes Allah, a fatwa is issued for their execution.
These distinctions make it clear Allah is a separate deity, with fundamentally different values, and has nothing in common with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Moreover, Allah has disdain for any religion other than Islam, and is highly critical of Christians and Jews. 



Good OP but if I may I'd like to address the above.  While what you say is true it seems to me this has little to do with different gods but with different practices and understandings.  Allah according to google search mean 'God' and literally translated can also refer to the Hebrew Elohim, another name for God from the OT.  We are told that God has many names but because there is only one God it is that same God being evoked ...



 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:07AM #17
amcolph
Posts: 18,338

Some people worship their doctrine rather than their God.

This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:13AM #18
Ed.W
Posts: 9,447

May 1, 2012 -- 10:07AM, amcolph wrote:


Some people worship their doctrine rather than their God.




That's true.  But when they insist that their doctrine accurately represents God and at the same time disagree with the doctrine presented in another faith that ostensibly worships the same God, then we can conclude that for all practical purposes they are worshipping a different God.

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 1:29PM #19
Seefan
Posts: 3,972

May 1, 2012 -- 10:07AM, amcolph wrote:


Some people worship their doctrine rather than their God.



I’ll assume you find this to be a negative?  In principle I agree with this statement.  And I agree with the negative aspect.  You claim to subscribe to the Nicene Creed.  To believe in it is one thing but to worship it is certainly something quite different.  It would replace the true God and close you off from recognizing further truth. 


Let me suggest what is a doctrine and what harm it may bring to one’s spiritual develpment!  If one is worshiping a doctrine rather than their God it ‘may not’ be an accurate representation of who or what God is, for a doctrine is the ‘development and recorded’ set of beliefs put forward by a particular church based upon what they believe their religion to be and is the tenets of how everyone else should believe and act.  Some is based on scripture while other is what is believed to be based on scripture.  Jesus said in reference to the Return, "I come like a thief in the night".  Doctrine doesn’t allow for such change in how one might belief or taught to believe, as the Jews in Jesus’ time.  Doctrine can be the biggest problem within religion and is what creates division rather than unity.  To worship such certainly is not from God and has nothing to do with God for it has the power to destroy rather than build. If this is what you had in mind great.  If not I’d love to hear your views for consideration ......


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 1:37PM #20
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,832

May 1, 2012 -- 9:57AM, Seefan wrote:


Apr 29, 2012 -- 3:54PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

  While anyone is free to leave Christianity or Judaism, if a Muslim leaves the faith, or criticizes Allah, a fatwa is issued for their execution.
These distinctions make it clear Allah is a separate deity, with fundamentally different values, and has nothing in common with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Moreover, Allah has disdain for any religion other than Islam, and is highly critical of Christians and Jews. 



Good OP but if I may I'd like to address the above.  While what you say is true it seems to me this has little to do with different gods but with different practices and understandings.  Allah according to google search mean 'God' and literally translated can also refer to the Hebrew Elohim, another name for God from the OT.  We are told that God has many names but because there is only one God it is that same God being evoked ...



 





You are not quoting me - you are quoting the author of the article I posted for comment. There is a difference

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