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Switch to Forum Live View Do we pray to same G-d?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 3:54PM #1
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,322
Hi,

I am posting this on the DJ, DI and DC boards because I want to know what people think about this guys' theory.

Personally, I have also thought that Islam is closer to Judaism because of its strict and uncompromising monotheism, its community structure, and its tradition of oral law (I know that the Muslims on these boards do not like it called that, but I have no other word for it). On the other hand there is no question that the direct connection between Judaism and Christianity through the person of Jesus, who was after all, Jewish, is not found between Judaism and Islam or Christianity and Islam. There is also the fact that the Christians pay more attention to  and place more emphasis and reliance on the Hebrew Bible than do Muslims.

So what do you think?

Frankly, I believe his premise that we may not be praying to the same G-d is nonsense.  If one believes that there is only one G-d, then it is only logical that there is only one G-d to which anyone may address their prayers. Thus no matter our intentions (and I believe we share the same intention), we must all pray to the one G-d.

    

Do we pray to same God?

Op-ed: Judaism, Christianity have much more in common with each other than either have with Islam

Dan Calic

How many times have you heard it said "we all pray to the same god?" These days we are hearing this from a growing number of people. To some degree one can excuse the average person from espousing such a viewpoint, as most people have not read the Bible and are not well schooled in matters of theology or eschatology.
. . .

One doesn't have to look very far to discover why this view is problematic.

 

The "Shahada," which is the statement of faith for the followers of Allah, reads, "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." This statement clearly differentiates Allah from any other "god."

. . .

The Quran, which is the holy book of Allah's followers, says "the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam." As this makes it clear a believer in Allah must follow Islam, one might ask if other religions are tolerated. According to the Quran, "if anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted…" So much for Islam's tolerance of other religions.

 
The Quran also is highly critical of Christians and Jews. Some quotes include: "Jews and Christians are evil-livers,” "Evil is the handwork of rabbis and priests,” "Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do Allah will consider you to be one of them."

 
Different values

Fundamental values for Christians and Jews include forgiveness, in addition to prohibitions against lying, adultery, and murder. Fundamental values for Allah's followers sanction judgment (fatwa,) lying (taqiyya,) men having multiple wives, and murder/suicide (martyrdom.)

 
While anyone is free to leave Christianity or Judaism, if a Muslim leaves the faith, or criticizes Allah, a fatwa is issued for their execution.

 

These distinctions make it clear Allah is a separate deity, with fundamentally different values, and has nothing in common with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Moreover, Allah has disdain for any religion other than Islam, and is highly critical of Christians and Jews.
. . .
 full article:
 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4221932,00.html


 
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 7:39PM #2
Pam34
Posts: 2,649

The Rambam points out that Islam and Judaism are theologically much closer to each other than either is to Christianity. Just sayin....


Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 9:09PM #3
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,322

Who am I to argue with the Rambam?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 9:46PM #4
visio
Posts: 3,233

Apr 29, 2012 -- 7:39PM, Pam34 wrote:


The Rambam points out that Islam and Judaism are theologically much closer to each other than either is to Christianity. Just sayin....





If my memory, of reading some writings, is correct during his time also lived a great Muslim saint/awliyah - Sheikh Muhiyeedin Ibn Arabi.   And those two were good friends. Perhaps they coul dbe contacting each other telephatically.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 11:24PM #5
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

No. Christians pray to Poseidon


Jews and Muslims worship Ares.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 11:40PM #6
Pam34
Posts: 2,649

Poseidon?? nah - Osiris maybe.




Who's brainier: Ares, Mars or Thor?


Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:11AM #7
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 29, 2012 -- 3:54PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Hi,

So what do you think?

Frankly, I believe his premise that we may not be praying to the same G-d is nonsense.  If one believes that there is only one G-d, then it is only logical that there is only one G-d to which anyone may address their prayers. Thus no matter our intentions (and I believe we share the same intention), we must all pray to the one G-d.



To suggest that Muslims pray to a different god than Jews and Christians would be to suggest that other gods exist, which is anathema to both Christians.


Now, some Christians believe in demons and believe that the gods of other religions are really these demons in disguise to deceive foolish humans, but that's only a step below believing that the gods of other religions are really alien overlords like in Stargate: SG1.


If the existence of one God is debatable, the existence of multiple gods or godlike beings is just plain out of the question. If any sort of god exists and has communicated in any way with humans, then it is reasonable that all religions worship this same ultimate reality even if they understand It differently.     

To the matter at hand:
 

The "Shahada," which is the statement of faith for the followers of Allah, reads, "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." This statement clearly differentiates Allah from any other "god."



No more so than the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God differentiates the god of Christianity from the god of Judaism.


The Quran, which is the holy book of Allah's followers, says "the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam." As this makes it clear a believer in Allah must follow Islam, one might ask if other religions are tolerated. According to the Quran, "if anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted…" So much for Islam's tolerance of other religions.



Neither the Tanakh nor the New Testament are very tolerant of Jews and Christians respectively that want to change religions.
 

The Quran also is highly critical of Christians and Jews. Some quotes include: "Jews and Christians are evil-livers,” "Evil is the handwork of rabbis and priests,” "Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do Allah will consider you to be one of them."



In other parts, the Qur'an praises Jews and Christians. It's a hodgepodge. The Tanakh orders Jews to annihilate non-Jewish religious worship (and worshipers!) in the Land of Israel, and the New Testament orders Christians not to associate with idolaters. 

 

Fundamental values for Christians and Jews include forgiveness, in addition to prohibitions against lying, adultery, and murder. Fundamental values for Allah's followers sanction judgment (fatwa,) lying (taqiyya,) men having multiple wives, and murder/suicide (martyrdom.)



This is a whole big boatload of wrong. There is no commandment against "lying" in the Torah: one just isn't permitted to desecrate God's name with a false oath. "Taqiyya" is such an overblown concept that whenever it's mentioned you can usually tell that the author has no real clue what he's talking about. The Torah allows men to have multiple wives, too, and the Tanakh is chock full of murder. You could probably even consider Shimshon in the temple of Dagon to be the prototype suicide bomber. And the murder/martyrdom element in Christianity is so well known that it doesn't need to be mentioned.

 

While anyone is free to leave Christianity or Judaism, if a Muslim leaves the faith, or criticizes Allah, a fatwa is issued for their execution.



Prior to the Enlightenment and the subsequent revolutions, anyone who wanted to leave Christianity got a fatwa issued for their execution, too. Jews haven't had the political power to execute anyone for religious infractions for thousands of years, but the Torah is clear on what the punishment should be for any Jew who "whores after other gods." Moreover, it is only in some Muslim sects supported by theocratic state power that this phenomenon occurs. This indicates that the problem is one of secular political issues, not the religion.

 


These distinctions make it clear Allah is a separate deity, with fundamentally different values, and has nothing in common with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Moreover, Allah has disdain for any religion other than Islam, and is highly critical of Christians and Jews.
. . .

 



Fail.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 12:49PM #8
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,838

Yahweh, Allah, God


May cleave mountains


May part seas


But never split hairs.


 


The Jews, the Christians as well as the Muslims regard their God One, Almighty, Omniscient, Creator of all things, Most Loving, Most Merciful, All-Highest, All-Glorious, Just, Perfect, Sovereign Lord, Clement, All-Wise, Answerer of prayers, All-Hearing, All-Seeing, Glorious, et cetera. How can any two believers agree on the foregoing attributes of a unique being and still regard the other one's prayer-hearing being an entirely different god? Simple answer: Due to religious bigotry.


To think that God would let any sincere believer in Him suffer eternal damnation for accepting all of the above but not the "fact" that He once incarnated Himself in a flawed bodily form some 2,000 years ago, is effectively to question both God's love as well as His perfection.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 1:20PM #9
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:49PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Yahweh, Allah, God


May cleave mountains


May part seas


But never split hairs.


 


The Jews, the Christians as well as the Muslims regard their God One, Almighty, Omniscient, Creator of all things, Most Loving, Most Merciful, All-Highest, All-Glorious, Just, Perfect, Sovereign Lord, Clement, All-Wise, Answerer of prayers, All-Hearing, All-Seeing, Glorious, et cetera. How can any two believers agree on the foregoing attributes of a unique being and still regard the other one's prayer-hearing being an entirely different god? Simple answer: Due to religious bigotry.


To think that God would let any sincere believer in Him suffer eternal damnation for accepting all of the above but not the fact that He once incarnated Himself in a flawed bodily form some 2,000 years ago, is effectively to question both God's love as well as His perfection.




For a Jew to believe in an corporality to God would be a grave mistake, as clearly enunciated by Maimonides and others. And the problem is not merely one of dogma. One's belief shapes one's view of the world and how to deal with life's challenges. If the belief is impure, for e.g. ascribing to God corporality, the ripple effects of such a belief will perforce spill over into action some point down the line, even if a person was not aware of it at the beginning. E.g. a person might think God has partners and/or is not fully omnipotent or fully omniscient. 


Now, Judaism believes that God will be the final arbiter of each individual's actions and existence in this world, taking into account all situations which may lead to a divine judgment that human beings would never make or could ever understand. However, in terms of setting up the parameters of a religion, it is still very important to state distinction as to what beliefs a person should have and strive for. In many (maybe all?) cases there will be ripple effects down the line.


In short, stating catogorically that belief in God's corporeality is a grave mistake does not deny that God can judge even a person who makes a grave mistake very mercifully, but it is still necessary to a) state the truth and b) educate people so that they can improve themselves. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 1:24PM #10
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,838

Apr 30, 2012 -- 1:20PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:49PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Yahweh, Allah, God


May cleave mountains


May part seas


But never split hairs.


 


The Jews, the Christians as well as the Muslims regard their God One, Almighty, Omniscient, Creator of all things, Most Loving, Most Merciful, All-Highest, All-Glorious, Just, Perfect, Sovereign Lord, Clement, All-Wise, Answerer of prayers, All-Hearing, All-Seeing, Glorious, et cetera. How can any two believers agree on the foregoing attributes of a unique being and still regard the other one's prayer-hearing being an entirely different god? Simple answer: Due to religious bigotry.


To think that God would let any sincere believer in Him suffer eternal damnation for accepting all of the above but not the fact that He once incarnated Himself in a flawed bodily form some 2,000 years ago, is effectively to question both God's love as well as His perfection.




For a Jew to believe in an corporality to God would be a grave mistake, as clearly enunciated by Maimonides and others.



In this regard the Jews, the Muslims and the Bahá'ís are in perfect agreement.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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