Post Reply
Page 1 of 4  •  1 2 3 4 Next
Switch to Forum Live View "One At Your Right Hand and One At Your Left"
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 7:48PM #1
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared. And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”  (Mark 10)

So some of you might know that I was recently in Rome.  At St. Peter's Basilica, on the top of the facade, there are 13 statues.  St. Peter's is ENORMOUS [and, btw, I've been before and I don't care who you are--Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, Satan Worshipper, you simply must see this place before you die...


One observer wrote: "St Peter's Basilica is the reason why Rome is still the center of the civilized world. For religious, historical, and architectural reasons it by itself justifies a journey to Rome, and its interior offers a palimpsest of artistic styles at their best..."[9]


The American philosopher Ralph Waldo Emerson described St Peter's as "an ornament of the earth ....the sublime of the beautiful."[10]


totally true...]

so from the vantage point of standing on the square, it's difficult to identify who the statues might be.  The figure in the middle is obviously Jesus, and one figures given the number the rest are Apostles.

See here, which would sort of be your vantage point from the square.

I wanted to know who was at Christ's right and left and was especially intrigued by the fact that at His right, there was a vague sort of "Roman" looking... character (as compared to the others in robes.)  Anyway, no matter what angle I tried to view the figures on Christ's right and left, I could not for the life of me identify them.  Even trying to get a better look by zooming in with a camera (the place is that big.) 

Now let's "zoom" in a little closer.

Any ideas?

So I finally get around to looking it up.

Know who they are?  At His right is John the Baptist (!?) and at his left is... St Andrew (?!?!?!)

Um, St. Andrew.  And, um, John the Baptist.

Interesting..."interpretation."

Anyway, any thoughts on "for whom it has been prepared" or who should be at His right and His left?


Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:57PM #2
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:48PM, Adelphe wrote:

Know who they are?  At His right is John the Baptist (!?) and at his left is... St Andrew (?!?!?!)


Um, St. Andrew.  And, um, John the Baptist.


Interesting..."interpretation."


Anyway, any thoughts on "for whom it has been prepared" or who should be at His right and His left?


Perhaps to start with the Scripture ...


The Testimony of John the Baptist

(...) 35 Again the next day John was standing there with two of his disciples. 36 Gazing at Jesus as he walked by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!” 37 When John’s two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. 38 Jesus turned around and saw them following and said to them, “What do you want?” So they said to him, “Rabbi” (which is translated Teacher), “where are you staying?” 39 Jesus answered, “Come and you will see.” So they came and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day. Now it was about four o’clock in the afternoon.


Andrew’s Declaration


40 Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two disciples who heard what John said and followed Jesus. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and told him, “We have found the Messiah!” (which is translated Christ). 42 Andrew brought Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon, the son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).

(John 1:35-42)



... is not such a silly idea ...


MdS


P.S. The link to the image "let's "zoom" in a little closer" returns "forbidden" ...

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 12:01AM #3
Ebon
Posts: 9,825

Apr 28, 2012 -- 7:48PM, Adelphe wrote:

[and, btw, I've been before and I don't care who you are--Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, Satan Worshipper, you simply must see this place before you die...



I'd love to, history has ever been a passion of mine, but being both poor and crippled (I can only get around on crutches these days), it seems unlikely.

Um, St. Andrew.  And, um, John the Baptist.

Interesting..."interpretation."



Can you explain (in a Christianity For Dummies way) why that's so outlandish?

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 12:11AM #4
SeraphimR
Posts: 8,346

On His right, the Theotokos.


On His left, John the Baptist.

The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 12:32AM #5
Ed.W
Posts: 9,407

Apr 29, 2012 -- 12:11AM, SeraphimR wrote:


On His right, the Theotokos.


On His left, John the Baptist.




photo here.  Click on the photo and you can see Mary's chest hair.

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 3:46AM #6
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

fore runner



first convert

Non Quis, Sed Quid
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 5:36AM #7
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:57PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

... The link to the image "let's "zoom" in a little closer" returns "forbidden" ...


Apr 29, 2012 -- 12:32AM, Ed.W wrote:

photo here.


Ah ... that's better!


Click on the photo and you can see Mary's chest hair.


I cannot see any "chest hair"...


... but I can definitely see the beard ... Surprised


... and the loins' fleece ... Surprised


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 7:10AM #8
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:57PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Perhaps to start with the Scripture ...


The Testimony of John the Baptist

(...) 35 Again the next day John was standing there with two of his disciples. 36 Gazing at Jesus as he walked by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!” 37 When John’s two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. 38 Jesus turned around and saw them following and said to them, “What do you want?” So they said to him, “Rabbi” (which is translated Teacher), “where are you staying?” 39 Jesus answered, “Come and you will see.” So they came and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day. Now it was about four o’clock in the afternoon.


Andrew’s Declaration


40 Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two disciples who heard what John said and followed Jesus. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and told him, “We have found the Messiah!” (which is translated Christ). 42 Andrew brought Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon, the son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).

(John 1:35-42)



... is not such a silly idea ...


MdS



...and, therefore, to put the two at His right and His left makes all the sense in the world, why, again?



P.S. The link to the image "let's "zoom" in a little closer" returns "forbidden" ...




Huh.


Have no idea why--it doesn't for me.


Here is a link to the website of the image (rather than just the image itself.)  Try now:


www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/ima...

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 7:27AM #9
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Apr 29, 2012 -- 12:01AM, Ebon wrote:


I'd love to, history has ever been a passion of mine, but being both poor and crippled (I can only get around on crutches these days), it seems unlikely.



You don't have to share publicly (or at all) if this isn't the appropriate..."forum" but crippled????  Why, what happened?


(btw, I was in YOUR glorious land just before Rome :-) --ALMOST as wonderful (for other reasons--just a tiny one being (yes, call me a tourist but those Beefeaters--ROFLMBO!!!! (iow, divine British humor), but not...quite...)

Can you explain (in a Christianity For Dummies way) why that's so outlandish?



Well, for one reason, if I asked the question and didn't reference St. Peter's at all, would it have occured to you to name those two as candidates?


Secondly, let's look at the passage again,


Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized? And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized,


Okay, so here Jesus is explaining they really have no idea what they "want"--what they want is going to be pretty "painful"...


but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,


And here Jesus explains what it means to be "great" and have places of honor next to Him--unlike "the world," it means being a servant...


and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.


...and not only a servant but the top spot of honor among them belongs to a slave


For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” 


And the very pinnacle of honor is a servant cum slave who has given His life and that--as a ransom.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 7:31AM #10
Adelphe
Posts: 28,699

Apr 29, 2012 -- 12:11AM, SeraphimR wrote:


On His right, the Theotokos.


On His left, John the Baptist.




(Well I totally disagree but) I understand why.


Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 4  •  1 2 3 4 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook