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Switch to Forum Live View How does one come to saving knowledge of Christ?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:21AM #1
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

I actually admire the persistence of Kwinters, Blu and some of the others here concerning pressing Christians to demonstrate the truth and consistency of scripture. But this attitude seems to be saying, if only you can show me from a rational standpoint why I should believe the scriptures will I believe in the Jesus the Christ of the Church, and by this means come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Is this not a sincere quest for truth? Then why does not God, AKA Jesus the Christ (from the orthodox Christian standpoint), or the Holy Spirit (just covering all the bases) reward the search for truth with the gift of the saving knowledge of Christ?

How does one come to a saving knowledge of Christ?

It seems that with our ordinary rational mind, we cannot bridge the gap between unbelief and belief. So to me the real question seems to be, not who said what in scripture, what's authentic and what's not, but how does one cross the gap, make the leap of faith from not-having a saving knowledge of Christ to having a saving knowledge of Christ?

Throughout scripture, both OT and NT, this thing called faith seems to be what one has to have to come to a saving knowledge of Christ. IOW, faith is the key to the kingdom, not rational knowledge.

So the real question seems to be, how does one come to faith? And the next question is, how, by what means, can one know that their faith is real, and not just imaginary belief in a made-made myth? or false-(non-saving)believe in the truth? (showing the view from each side of the fence). Jesus indicates there are some who actually have this imaginary belief, and that it is not a saving knowledge of Christ (Not everyone who cries, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. Matt. 7:21).

So, on the one hand we have some who seem to have a sincere quest for truth but do not have a saving knowledge of Christ, and OTOH there are some who have a false belief in a (non)saving knowledge of Christ, both in the same boat of not-actually being saved.

But on the third hand we have the true Church of Christ, those who have a correct saving faith in Christ, members of the Church invisible (so to speak, invisible because no man can see the actual [ontological change] in one's being. Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons. Some have this false-belief and fool themselves, not just others).

We are left with two questions. How does an unbeliever (Kwinters, Blu, Paladinsf) come to an actual saving faith in Christ? And how does a "believer" with non-saving imaginary, false "belief" come to see they are in the category described by Jesus (not everyone who cries Lord, Lord)?

So this brings us back to the 'Type' of Kw and Blu, how do we keep them from coming to the category of false-belief and thus not really saved? (As in [only] saying the Jesus prayer or walking the isle of a church, or putting their hands on the TV or something such). How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?

stardustpilgrim             
  

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:47AM #2
Blü
Posts: 24,837

Hi, stardust


How does an unbeliever (Kwinters, Blu, Paladinsf) come to an actual saving faith in Christ?


To me, everything you're proposing is imaginary - no Jesus with objective existence, no real debt or obligation that might involve 'redemption', can be identified.



And how does a "believer" with non-saving imaginary, false "belief" come to see they are in the category described by Jesus (not everyone who cries Lord, Lord)?


That's not a question which I can relate to anything in reality.


So this brings us back to the 'Type' of Kw and Blu, how do we keep them from coming to the category of false-belief and thus not really saved?


If you treated us like adults, and trusted us to live our own lives and pursue our own values, you mightn't go far wrong.



How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?


What objective test would tell you that such a thing existed?  What further objective test would tell you that your knowledge was "true and actual"?


None, alas.  It's all in the realms of imagination, where any answer that pleases you is the right one.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 7:32AM #3
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:47AM, Blü wrote:


Hi, stardust


So this brings us back to the 'Type' of Kw and Blu, how do we keep them from coming to the category of false-belief and thus not really saved?


If you treated us like adults, and trusted us to live our own lives and pursue our own values, you mightn't go far wrong.




I gave the view of your side of the fence a fair hearing, who else does that here? You're on Beliefnet dude. You're on Discuss Christianity. I don't care how you live your life. You don't even believe that you yourself have free will, why are you complaining that I'm not treating you as an adult. If you really believed your own philosophy of life you'd understand I can't help how I post, so you wouldn't complain. As long as you poking around here you should be big enough to take whatever comes your way. 


You've been told a thousand times that there is no objective, independently verfiable proof for the existence of God. I welcome all the criticism you can throw at us here, keeps us from getting fat and lazy. It seems that it's difficult for you to enter our world and us yours. I don't really understand why your even here. But, as the case may be, as long as you're here, I'll keep looking over the fence........


sdp 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:06AM #4
Ed.W
Posts: 9,426

Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:47AM, Blü wrote:


Hi, stardust


So this brings us back to the 'Type' of Kw and Blu, how do we keep them from coming to the category of false-belief and thus not really saved?


If you treated us like adults, and trusted us to live our own lives and pursue our own values, you mightn't go far wrong.




We do trust you to live your own lives and pursue your own values.  I don't get up every day and go to say "discuss Paganism" and try to say its adherants are misguided or not fully informed.  Yet hardly a day goes by on my Facebook that a pagan doesn't put up some graphic directly criticizing Christianity.


The last one had some person worshipping the sun at sunset, his arms raised (worshipping nature actually), and the caption read:  "I worship nature...  Don't laugh.  I can prove it exists."


Who is laughing?  Not me.


I'm at a loss as to why people who worship nature, or multiple gods, or other gods, or no god feel like they are laughed at.  Or why you feel you are not treated as an adult, or why you feel that you are not "left alone" to pursue your own ideas and values.


I think that's the problem.  You are left alone.  And you want to spoil for the conversation that would never be had otherwise.  You have nagging doubts.

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:09AM #5
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I actually admire the persistence of Kwinters, Blu and some of the others here concerning pressing Christians to demonstrate the truth and consistency of scripture. But this attitude seems to be saying, if only you can show me from a rational standpoint why I should believe the scriptures will I believe in the Jesus the Christ of the Church, and by this means come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Is this not a sincere quest for truth? Then why does not God, AKA Jesus the Christ (from the orthodox Christian standpoint), or the Holy Spirit (just covering all the bases) reward the search for truth with the gift of the saving knowledge of Christ?



Where's the...repentance?




How does one come to a saving knowledge of Christ?

It seems that with our ordinary rational mind, we cannot bridge the gap between unbelief and belief. So to me the real question seems to be, not who said what in scripture, what's authentic and what's not, but how does one cross the gap, make the leap of faith from not-having a saving knowledge of Christ to having a saving knowledge of Christ?

Throughout scripture, both OT and NT, this thing called faith seems to be what one has to have to come to a saving knowledge of Christ. IOW, faith is the key to the kingdom, not rational knowledge.

So the real question seems to be, how does one come to faith?



"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."



And the next question is, how, by what means, can one know that their faith is real, and not just imaginary belief in a made-made myth? or false-(non-saving)believe in the truth? (showing the view from each side of the fence). Jesus indicates there are some who actually have this imaginary belief, and that it is not a saving knowledge of Christ (Not everyone who cries, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. Matt. 7:21).



See 1 John...




But on the third hand we have the true Church of Christ, those who have a correct saving faith in Christ, members of the Church invisible (so to speak, invisible because no man can see the actual [ontological change] in one's being. Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons.



I would disagree with this.  I have no idea why you'd have those with "a correct saving faith in Christ", "members of the Church invisible" (and with an "ontological change in their being"), being "deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending", etc.  For what possible reason?


We are left with two questions. How does an unbeliever (Kwinters, Blu, Paladinsf) come to an actual saving faith in Christ? And how does a "believer" with non-saving imaginary, false "belief" come to see they are in the category described by Jesus (not everyone who cries Lord, Lord)?

So this brings us back to the 'Type' of Kw and Blu, how do we keep them from coming to the category of false-belief and thus not really saved? (As in [only] saying the Jesus prayer or walking the isle of a church, or putting their hands on the TV or something such). How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?

stardustpilgrim             
  




Again, repent... and be baptized in the name (authority) of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins...then...you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:13AM #6
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:47AM, Blü wrote:


Hi, stardust


How does an unbeliever (Kwinters, Blu, Paladinsf) come to an actual saving faith in Christ?


To me, everything you're proposing is imaginary - no Jesus with objective existence, no real debt or obligation that might involve 'redemption', can be identified.



Voila!


Zero repentance, thus...


(Not to pick on you at all, my dearest Blu, but I am making a point...)

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:32AM #7
lulu2
Posts: 454

First, we must admit we have a conscience. And that this conscience has a purpose. Then we must ask ourselves, if we have been created for the earth, and survival on the earth. What would be the use of a sense of goodness, we are urged to choose? If survival on earth, was mans natural existence, what would be the need to want to be better than we already are?


What would cause us to want more than just a survival nature? What is inherrent in our wanting to be good towards others, or to impose on ourselves values that go against at times, our survival instincts? I believe this has little to do with faith, but everything to do with what is the "all good in us", we call God, or our Highest Good.


It has little to do with behavior or nurture alone, because many of us as young children could see where parents, and teachers and neighbors werent living the truth they were attempting to teach us. So what was within our nature, that allowed some of us to see the dichcotomy of their truth?  What was it showing us, if not something within , that was good and true?  

Without the Soul of Christ alive in us...we are nothing but empty shells...
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:33AM #8
Kwinters
Posts: 21,845

Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I actually admire the persistence of Kwinters, Blu and some of the others here concerning pressing Christians to demonstrate the truth and consistency of scripture. But this attitude seems to be saying, if only you can show me from a rational standpoint why I should believe the scriptures will I believe in the Jesus the Christ of the Church, and by this means come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Is this not a sincere quest for truth? 




In full disclosure, my interests lie in comparing the theological construct of Jesus as it evolved in the centuries to the evidence that demonstrates it changed and evolved over time.


I think that the earliest gospel preached by the apostles was of a human man who devoted himself to god, and for this god made him his instrument, they preached that he did miracles and taught people how to be right with God.  And after his death, which God foreordained and saw, God rewarded Jesus for his devoted existence by raising him from the dead and transforming him into God's agent to the Jews.  A king and a messiah who would enact the promises of God in the coming Kingdom of God, a man who would rule in righteousness and oversee a golden age for all believers.


That is what my investigations into the texts and historical facts have led me to conclude.  But this evidence based view stands in stark contradiction to the theological Jesus and the theological selective reading of texts which mixes and matches different gospels, forged letters and anonymous writings used to construct a wholly different theological Jesus.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:43AM #9
dio
Posts: 4,820

I think the spirit of Christ once given by God continues on earth after Jesus in the lives of believers. To the best of said believers ability.


As for saved, You can only know it when you experience it. For example, I have experience being delivered from evil, perhaps you say good luck, I say saved through deliverance from evil.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 9:16AM #10
lulu2
Posts: 454

And here are the two differences. between the last two answers. ..some need to feed the egos need of knowledge, by questioning ad inifinitum the craving of the intellectual mind. Which can be used to slay the real, or feed the untruth..seeking more fulfilment in asking the questions, than in wanting to come to know, Christs ABSOLUTE TRUTH. And those who can accept GOD,  because of their personal experience, which for many who have been saved in this way, is more enlighten in His truth, than that of the intellect of man.

Without the Soul of Christ alive in us...we are nothing but empty shells...
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