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Switch to Forum Live View How does one come to saving knowledge of Christ?
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 9:59PM #81
Blü
Posts: 25,073

lope


A new born baby is spiritually perfect, not guilty of any sin.


I'm glad you don't attribute original sin to it.


I'd say its potential character and capacities were to some substantial degree already genetically determined and that other potential aspects of it were at this time amorphous or absent, rather than that it was perfect.


Terrifically cute, and twice over if it has bright eyes, but I don't think 'perfect' is the word.


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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 12:17AM #82
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

May 2, 2012 -- 9:59PM, Blü wrote:


lope


A new born baby is spiritually perfect, not guilty of any sin.


I'm glad you don't attribute original sin to it.





Oh there is riginal sin in it.  Not the sin of the mythical Adam, perhaps, but the sins of its parents.  How many babies are born with heroin dependence?  rememeber the thalidomine babies of a few  decades ago?

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 12:28AM #83
Blü
Posts: 25,073

Jim


Oh there is riginal sin in it.  Not the sin of the mythical Adam, perhaps, but the sins of its parents.  How many babies are born with heroin dependence?  rememeber the thalidomine babies of a few  decades ago?


No one should ever doubt the advice to children to choose their parents with care.


Your post reminds me that reality proceeds exactly as you'd expect if there were only nature out there, rather than gods.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 12:51AM #84
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

May 2, 2012 -- 9:23PM, Adelphe wrote:



sdp wrote: She wasn't helping any. She just kept preaching, preaching to the choir.



Sweetie, hon, you are so not in the choir--not by a long shot.  You need to hear it.






I did the whole trip when I was nine. You need to look at Hebrews 6:1. You must be part Southern Baptist.


My gospel is what Jesus said (in conjunction with the whole gospel, but you can't leave out what Jesus said). I once copied everything Jesus told us to do, twenty-two single spaced typed pages (with close periphery stuff). That was about 25 years ago. He said, why do you call me Lord but not do what I tell you to do? I've never heard any of those 22 pages preached in any church. It's not earning salvation, but it is "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling". I've mostly heard "believe" preached, that's not the whole gospel.  


...............


Do you know why oil represents the Holy Spirit? Have you ever actually experienced it? Did you know it's not symbolic?


...................


But I love you too..............


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:58AM #85
lope
Posts: 11,752

May 2, 2012 -- 9:59PM, Blü wrote:


lope


A new born baby is spiritually perfect, not guilty of any sin.


I'm glad you don't attribute original sin to it.


I'd say its potential character and capacities were to some substantial degree already genetically determined and that other potential aspects of it were at this time amorphous or absent, rather than that it was perfect.


Terrifically cute, and twice over if it has bright eyes, but I don't think 'perfect' is the word.






I think spiritually alive is spiritually perfect.  The ability to sin is not sin.  God has the ability  to sin, but can be trusted to not use it.  You might have a point however in that spiritually perfect may only refer to someone who has gone through the trials of this life and been gifted with spiritual life in the next.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:06AM #86
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

May 3, 2012 -- 12:51AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I did the whole trip when I was nine. You need to look at Hebrews 6:1. You must be part Southern Baptist.



I'm not Southern Baptist but would consider myself honored to be invited as a member and to worship among "the second largest Christian body in the United States, after the Catholic Church", one of only 10 NGO's permitted immediately by FEMA on the scene of any disaster, the first to arrive and the last to leave, with a solidly orthodox, Christ-centered, Scriptural Statement of Faith.


In fact, why don't you point out the pernicious "error of their ways" in this section:


IV. Salvation


Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.


A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.


Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.


B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.


C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.


D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.


Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.


My gospel



?


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.


is what Jesus said (in conjunction with the whole gospel, but you can't leave out what Jesus said). I once copied everything Jesus told us to do, twenty-two single spaced typed pages (with close periphery stuff). That was about 25 years ago. He said, why do you call me Lord but not do what I tell you to do? I've never heard any of those 22 pages preached in any church.



You can hardly hear anything when you're not in a church.



It's not earning salvation, but it is "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling". I've mostly heard "believe" preached, that's not the whole gospel.  


...............


Do you know why oil represents the Holy Spirit? Have you ever actually experienced it? Did you know it's not symbolic?


...................



Preaching to the choir, sdp.  You'd know that if you were in a church...



But I love you too..............


sdp




And I, you.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 1:34PM #87
amcolph
Posts: 17,692

May 3, 2012 -- 9:06AM, Adelphe wrote:


 


I'm not Southern Baptist but would consider myself honored to be invited as a member and to worship among "the second largest Christian body in the United States, after the Catholic Church", one of only 10 NGO's permitted immediately by FEMA on the scene of any disaster, the first to arrive and the last to leave, with a solidly orthodox, Christ-centered, Scriptural Statement of Faith.



Which would hardly embarass even an Episcopalian like me. Surprised


In fact, why don't you point out the pernicious "error of their ways" in this section.



Not Southern Baptists generally, I think, but you might be interested in the following article which I came across the other day:


www.founders.org/journal/fj09/article1.h...



 

This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 8:26AM #88
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

May 3, 2012 -- 1:34PM, amcolph wrote:


Which would hardly embarass even an Episcopalian like me. Surprised



Well I am refreshed to hear that in some pockets somewhere in TEC there is a semblance of something approaching orthodoxy... :P



Not Southern Baptists generally, I think, but you might be interested in the following article which I came across the other day:


www.founders.org/journal/fj09/article1.h...



Yes, but there are plenty of Dispensationalists throughout Christianity--even in Catholicism.  In fact, I don't think it isn't present somewhere by some member of a denomination--despite its rejection by the orthodox Church (RCC, EO, and confessional Protestant) except, perhaps, for EO (at least I, personally, have never seen EO doctrine and/or an EO espouse it.)


As I am interested in ecclesiology I am aware of the HUGE fracas in the SBC over--essentially--flabby theology which came to a head in 1979 and is just now resolving itself .


Here's a brief piece on it, THE SBC CONSERVATIVE RESURGENCE: FUNDAMENTALIST CRUSADE OR ORTHODOX VINDICATION


The orthodox "won", btw, after having lost for so long.


Here's its conclusion:


Yet, it is highly unlikely that the liberal scholars of the early twentieth century will ever again return to SBC seminaries and institutions. While the new generation of Southern Baptists is inclusive, it is also clearly orthodox. So, it appears that God will truly work together for good, even for those who have needlessly maligned and mangled each other, all things for those who love him and are called according to his purposes.


I think that sdp's example of his brother-in-law is a case in point--a total unbeliever pastored a church (not sure he pastored an SBC church, but the seminary he attended was SBC.)



 





Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 8:29AM #89
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,819

How does one come to saving knowledge of Christ?


aka


How does an UNBELIEVER become a SAVED spiritual BELIEVER in Jesus the Christ, The God-Man?


Definitions:



"belief" ~= spirit-led "faith"...not just head knowledge
God the Holy Spirit inspired "belief" = SAVING "faith"
"save" = spiritually "born again" (John 3) into eternal life and out of eternal death
"grace" = unmerited favor of God's love, given as a gift,  led by God the Holy Spirit
"works" = any act directed to God to gain favor, including obedience to "laws" and precepts...you can't "work" your way to salvation!
"Law" = Mosaic law, law given to the nation Israel through Moses and OT heroes


Now read:


Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.


There are NO OTHER CONDITIONS other than accepting this gift of grace through spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF!!:...~200 times in NT!
NOT Repentance...which is nothing more than re-thinking...you don't have to be "purified".
NOT Confession...which is simply agreeing with God...you don't have to "come forward" / be public.
NOT Surrender...although you might want to dedicate yourself later as thanks for being saved now.
NOT Baptism...although this is a traditional outward sign of a believer's inward spiritual change.


SAVING FAITH:


John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who RECEIVED him,
to those who BELIEVED in His name, (Jesus the Christ)
He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...
The Word (logos) became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only,(Jesus)
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Acts 16: 30-31 (NIV)
Paul and Silas...He (jailor) then brought them out and asked,
"Sirs, what must I do to be SAVED?" (spiritually)
They replied, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and you WILL be saved
—you and your household."


1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous (Jesus) for the unrighteous (us),
to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,


John 3 (NIV)...Jesus teaches Nicodemus
...For God so (UNCONDITIONALLY) loved the world that He gave his one and only Son,
that whoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life....
'You must be BORN AGAIN(spiritually).' (from above)
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone BORN of the Spirit....(God the Holy Spirit)
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (Jesus cruxified)
that everyone who BELIEVES in him may have ETERNAL LIFE....


The blessings / results of SALVATION:


1. Substitution:  "in the place of" = ~ ATONEMENT?
2. Redemption:  " pay RANSOM, remove from pawn shop/prison, and release, set free "
3. Reconciliation:  "alienation ends"
4. Propititation:  "satisfaction with action"
5. Sin Nature Judged: "good overcomes bad"...nature changed
6. Justification:  "legal view: Just-if-I..never sinned " by the Advocate
7. Sanctification:  "set apart" / "goats to sheep" / a progressing believer / living like a  "Son"


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 8:53AM #90
Blü
Posts: 25,073

Rgurley


Goodness!  That's the biggest turn-off of a sales pitch I've seen for years!

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