Post Reply
Page 4 of 10  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10 Next
Switch to Forum Live View How does one come to saving knowledge of Christ?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:44PM #31
lope
Posts: 9,726

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:08AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


Zero repentance, thus...


Repentence of what, exactly?  Not that silly Sin of Adam stuff, surely?





No, the faliure on your part to be kind and loving to others.  That is the sin from which you should repent--turn from being unkind and unloving to being kind and loving.  I am not saying by the way that you and KW are unkind and unloving--I don't know and it is not up to me to determine that.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 4:21PM #32
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

"Now it came about...../.....that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, camped against it, and built a seige wall against it. ...... Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard.../...burned the house of the LORD.../...even every great house he burned with fire.... and many of the people he carried away in exile, leaving some of the poorest of the land to be vinedressers and plowmen" (paraphrased). 2 Kings 25:1,8,9,11,12


"In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon beseiged Jerusalem......ditto above......... Then the king ordered Ashpenaz to bring in some of the youth of Israel...to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans, Daniel among them". (some paraphrase) Daniel 1:1,3,4


Nebuchadnezzar had a dream that troubled him, but his wise guys could not interpret it. So Nebuchadnezzar ordered that all his wise guys be killed, with Daniel and his friends among them. Well, word got to Daniel the trouble he was in, so Daniel got word to Nebuchadnezzar that he had a pretty good connection with the God of Israel, and God could interpret the dream. Daniel did so, this made Nebuchadnezzar happy and it saved Daniel and his friends and all the wise men of Babylon. And Daniel said, Your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries..........


But then Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, and said everybody had to worship it, no exceptions. Of course that meant the friends of Daniel were in trouble again. The penalty was getting roasted. God saved the three friends of Daniel (we don't know where Daniel happened to be) from the furnace. So Nebuchadnezzar all: Your God is great, again, "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego", made a decree that if anybody spoke againist their God, that person would be "torn limb from limb".


OK, Nebuchadnezzar has another dream, they find Daniel. Daniel hears the dream, says, well...there's good new and there's bad news. God told me what the dream means, but you're not going to be happy with the interpretation. Neb, you're going to go mad, and you're going to eat grass like an ox until you "recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind" and gives power to whom He pleases.


And this is exactly what happened to Nebuchadnezzar twelve months later.


After seven periods of time, "I Nebuchadnezzar raised my eyes toward heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever.../...and my majesty and splendor were restored to me. .../...Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise, exalt, and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways are just, and he is able to humble those who walk in pride". Daniel 2,3,4 


.....................


Yep, Nebuchadnezzar is going to be in heaven. Searching for truth is serious business. "We can fall on the Rock, or the Rock will fall on us".


And even mental assent that God is, and is good and great, is not enough.


sdp


 


 


 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 4:33PM #33
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:29PM, Adelphe wrote:


Here's a side comment about that humiliation...


There is nothing as remarkable on earth (of course...cuz it's...supernatural!)


You get the biggest "dressing down" of your life while at the exact same time being elevated to a higher sense of worth than any human being could ever imagine.


Total paradox.  Totally upside down from the world.  Unworldly.


That's my (beautiful, surprising, glorious) God.


Smile




Yep.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 5:14PM #34
Iwantamotto
Posts: 7,796

stardustpilgrim:  I actually admire the persistence of Kwinters, Blu and some of the others here concerning pressing Christians to demonstrate the truth and consistency of scripture.


Never hurts to get another outlook.  :)


Then why does not God, AKA Jesus the Christ (from the orthodox Christian standpoint), or the Holy Spirit (just covering all the bases) reward the search for truth with the gift of the saving knowledge of Christ?


How do you know they haven't?  Is it because of the fact they still question?  Did not Jesus engage in lively debate?  Jesus had some simple rules (about as deep as an AA meeting's 12 steps), but He also engaged in theorizing about the meanings of passages and such.


Also, they are being true to themselves.  For a questioner to stop questioning would remove their function.  We didn't fire all the crosswalk cops just because we have stoplights now, you know.  The function remains important, thus they remain important (and by "they", I actually would like to include myself, Christian though I be though I doubt many would believe it).


So to me the real question seems to be, not who said what in scripture, what's authentic and what's not, but how does one cross the gap, make the leap of faith from not-having a saving knowledge of Christ to having a saving knowledge of Christ?


Are you arguing that salvation can stem from misinformation or outright lying?  If Christianity worships "The Truth, the Way, and the Life" ... don't you find it at least a wee bit important to verify our dogmatic statements before committing our very souls to them?


And I get that many statements will never be verified, being lost in the mists of ancient times, but we can at least TRY and not pooh-pooh attempts to get at the meat of the matter.


So the real question seems to be, how does one come to faith?


I've come to the conclusion that "faith" means different things depending on the discussion.  Sometimes it refers to trust and sometimes it refers to some sort of enlightenment concept, where you feel the connectedness with the divine or whatever, as though the boundaries are blurred.  Then again, some people apparently define it as "blindly follow what my preacher told me to say".  *shrugs*


Jesus indicates there are some who actually have this imaginary belief, and that it is not a saving knowledge of Christ (Not everyone who cries, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. Matt. 7:21).


I've also learned that the people I tend to have theological "issues" with are usually the first people to quote this verse.  Whoever smelt it, dealt it, after all.


Blu:  What objective test would tell you that such a thing existed?


Be true to yourself, warts and all.  Accepting yourself provides a certain peace you can't gain from constantly belittling yourself like some Christians do to themselves.  It's bad to be a narcissist too, so I'm not suggesting some sort of unbalanced "Hey, I'm awesome" kind of opinion, but the reason Darth Vader couldn't one-up Palpatine was that Palpatine LIKED who he was, whereas for DV there was so much angsty whining and conflict.  Had he let go of his issues he would've been beter off.  While I doubt that sdp is arguing for the "enlightenment" definition of "faith", the thing is the questioning suggests that is what sdp is going for, though clearly "believe whatever my preacher told me" is also highly evident.  However, assuming some transformative state of being is in order (suggesting the former, not the latter definition), then just ask yourself if you have any real conflicting notions of who you are.  If so, you still have some progress to be made.  If not, well, congrats, you've graduated spiritual grade school and there's a whole life ahead of you.  :)


After all, once you've reached the top of the guru's mountain ... what do you do, then?  SOMEBODY'S got to go back down to get the pizza, LOL.  :)


stardustpilgrim:  I gave the view of your side of the fence a fair hearing, who else does that here?


I do.  I listen to their concerns without simply shrugging it off as "those unbelievers, what the hell is wrong with them?".


lulu2:  If survival on earth, was mans natural existence, what would be the need to want to be better than we already are?


How well has destroying everything been working out?  Yeah, we've made lots of progress, but there have been high costs due to our willingness to "better" ourselves without being well-informed of what that really requires.


lulu2:  once one has had God through their own life experience..and not out of books or study or the like.


You denigrate Jesus, then, who not only spoke of authority from His personal relationship with God, but was more than capable of holding His own in a quote-mining debate.


If books weren't important, why would Jesus quote them?


lope:  Ezekeil says the righteous shall live and not die


And he should know, since he's still alive.


Oh, wait ....


Jesus taught in Matt 25:31 and following both the sheep and the goats did not understand that we love Jesus by loving others.  They were divided not on any knowledge, but on their loving or unloving actions.


I, for one, am tired of goats being mistreated in the media.  Don't you think goats are cute?  Things like this is why I have issues with certain Christian concepts, like "Truth".  It is NOT truth that sheep are good and goats are evil.  I don't CARE that it's just a metaphor -- the point is that if I am worshipping the Truth, I NEED the Truth, not someone's bias against dandelions or goats or reptiles.


stardustpilgrim:  And, in conjuction, "We can fall on the Rock, or the Rock will fall on us".


Or you can turn it into a nice statue and move into the center of a nice park.  :)


God saved the three friends of Daniel (we don't know where Daniel happened to be) from the furnace.


I think there's a better case of them being saved by Daniel (the 4th mysterious person) than Jesus.


OK, Nebuchadnezzar has another dream, they find Daniel. Daniel hears the dream, says, well...there's good new and there's bad news. God told me what the dream means, but you're not going to be happy with the interpretation. Neb, you're going to go mad, and you're going to eat grass like an ox until you "recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind" and gives power to whom He pleases.


God's a real jerk, isn't He?  Neb's said that kind of thing, what, like 3 times already?  And God STILL wants him to moo like a cow?

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 5:58PM #35
Ed.W
Posts: 9,407

Apr 28, 2012 -- 5:14PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


We didn't fire all the crosswalk cops just because we have stoplights now, you know. 




But interestingly, I seem to remember when I was a kid we used to have a red flag on a stick that a student would hold while the school bus loaded and unloaded in addition to the stop sign and flashing lights.  Whatever happened to that job?




Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:20PM #36
Kwinters
Posts: 18,308

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:32AM, lulu2 wrote:


once one has had God through their own life experience..and not out of books or study or the like. And speaks of Him  with no ego attachement for selfish glory, nor to boast or preen or lie. Then one can speak with authority as to what they have experienced..not for anything other than for the love of GOD, and to express to others the knowledge of their lifes experience WITH GOD. I believe some would considered that wisdom, for its not for my own self agrandizement that I speak. Those who see it that way, are reflecting their own ego, for you known not from where I come.  I care not to change any MIND..but to speak only of the Love I feel for my God.


Your words speak only of you! The only differece is, that I am aware there is a difference!




More self agrandizing ego feeding with a veneer of piety.  

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:22PM #37
Kwinters
Posts: 18,308

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:08AM, Blü wrote:


Adelphe


Zero repentance, thus...


Repentence of what, exactly?  Not that silly Sin of Adam stuff, surely?




How has the myth of Adam's sin been reconciled with evolutionary theory? When does modern theology view sin as having 'entered the world' I wonder.  With the opposible thumb?  Or the precision grip?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 8:36PM #38
Ed.W
Posts: 9,407

Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Kwinters wrote:



How has the myth of Adam's sin been reconciled with evolutionary theory? When does modern theology view sin as having 'entered the world' I wonder.  With the opposible thumb?  Or the precision grip?




No matter how evolved we become, we seem to keep on committing it.  What does that say for evolution??

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 9:57PM #39
Blü
Posts: 24,020

Ed


I think first you'd have to believe in God.


But why would I wish to do that?  I've looked carefully at the data and the record: we have no reason to think supernatural beings have objective existence ie exist outside of imagination.

And even leaving that aside, which god?  And why that one?

Or as I might say to stardust, Which little boat?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 9:57PM #40
Blü
Posts: 24,020

lope


No, the faliure on your part to be kind and loving to others.


That's a very personal accusation.  What failure are you speaking of?

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 4 of 10  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook