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Switch to Forum Live View How does one come to saving knowledge of Christ?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:26AM #21
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

The following gives a little direction to the OP.


I had in mind all along for the OP to write about Nebuchadnezzar, didn't get to it. I have no time now, but I'll get back to it........(see Daniel chapters 3: [1-7] & 4: [33-37].....)..........


sdp 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:56AM #22
Ed.W
Posts: 9,434

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:12AM, Blü wrote:


stardust


OK.........I'm not asking for knowledge. Back up one step. How would Blu, for example, come to understand the need for repentance?


Easy.  Point out a real debt or obligation, and a Jesus with objective existence.


If you're right, what's so hard about that?




I think first you'd have to believe in God.  Salvation is about reconciliation with God.  I don't pretend to know atheist soteriology.

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 2:37PM #23
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:56AM, Ed.W wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:12AM, Blü wrote:


stardust


OK.........I'm not asking for knowledge. Back up one step. How would Blu, for example, come to understand the need for repentance?


Easy.  Point out a real debt or obligation, and a Jesus with objective existence.


If you're right, what's so hard about that?




I think first you'd have to believe in God.  Salvation is about reconciliation with God.  I don't pretend to know atheist soteriology.




I agree. First you have to row a little boat. ............ (Smile) ..................

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:09PM #24
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:51AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I didn't think what I said here was so complicated.



No, just sloppy, apparently.


You provided us with three "hands":


1.  "So, on the one hand we have some who seem to have a sincere quest for truth but do not have a saving knowledge of Christ"


2.  "OTOH there are some who have a false belief in a (non)saving knowledge of Christ, both in the same boat of not-actually being saved."


3.  "But on the third hand we have the true Church of Christ, those who have a correct saving faith in Christ, members of the Church invisible (so to speak, invisible because no man can see the actual [ontological change] in one's being. Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons. Some have this false-belief and fool themselves, not just others)."


On your "third hand" they wouldn't be "members of the church invisible", "the true Church of Christ", have "an ontological change in their being" IF they were "deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending."



There is the visible church, hundreds of denominations, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox etc. Really almost anybody can join almost any church visible. Some churches have more steps to comply with. But anybody who is willing to go through the steps, and lie, if necessary, can get their name on the roll of a church visible. The Southern Baptist Church I grew up in ('50's, '60's), you could walk the isle at the end of the service, profess faith in Christ, and become a member instantly.


However, there is the One true Church, invisible. Only those who have a correct saving faith in Christ are members of the Church invisible. And only God can know 100% who are members of the Church invisible, nobody can fool God. Only God knows 100% who has had the ontological change. 


So, it is possible for an unbeliever to be a member of a visible Church. A good actor can be a member of a visible Church, a deliberate hypocrite likewise. You can become a member of a Church thinking you are a Christian, and not really be. This is my brother-in-law's testimony. He was a youth Pastor, finished college, went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, graduated, got ordained, became a pastor, was the pastor of a Church, and realized he hadn't really been born again, hadn't really had the ontological change. Did so publicly, stayed Pastor of the same Church.


Read my post again and see if that's not what I said, and see if it makes sense.


sdp   




Again, your brother-in-law, for example belongs on your hand 2.  As does all the stuff you added to hand 3. that doesn't apply to the invisible Church,


"Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons. Some have this false-belief and fool themselves, not just others)."




Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:14PM #25
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:58AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:09AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?

stardustpilgrim             
  




Again, repent... and be baptized in the name (authority) of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins...then...you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




OK.........I'm not asking for knowledge. Back up one step. How would Blu, for example, come to understand the need for repentance?


How does one break through the circle of self to see something greater?


I didn't think the OP was so complicated..........


sdp 




[Well first, again, it wasn't complicated, just (apparently) sloppy and second, you got the answer you asked for...]


Now you're asking another question.


1.  Primarily through an awareness of/experiencing of "something not quite right with the world" (i.e., sin.) and a seeking for understanding and/or explanation and/or an answer


2.  A recognition (or acceptance of the notion) of God (even the "god of the philosophers.")


Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:16PM #26
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:09PM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:51AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I didn't think what I said here was so complicated.



No, just sloppy, apparently.


You provided us with three "hands":


1.  "So, on the one hand we have some who seem to have a sincere quest for truth but do not have a saving knowledge of Christ"


2.  "OTOH there are some who have a false belief in a (non)saving knowledge of Christ, both in the same boat of not-actually being saved."


3.  "But on the third hand we have the true Church of Christ, those who have a correct saving faith in Christ, members of the Church invisible (so to speak, invisible because no man can see the actual [ontological change] in one's being. Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons. Some have this false-belief and fool themselves, not just others)."


On your "third hand" they wouldn't be "members of the church invisible", "the true Church of Christ", have "an ontological change in their being" IF they were "deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending."



There is the visible church, hundreds of denominations, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox etc. Really almost anybody can join almost any church visible. Some churches have more steps to comply with. But anybody who is willing to go through the steps, and lie, if necessary, can get their name on the roll of a church visible. The Southern Baptist Church I grew up in ('50's, '60's), you could walk the isle at the end of the service, profess faith in Christ, and become a member instantly.


However, there is the One true Church, invisible. Only those who have a correct saving faith in Christ are members of the Church invisible. And only God can know 100% who are members of the Church invisible, nobody can fool God. Only God knows 100% who has had the ontological change. 


So, it is possible for an unbeliever to be a member of a visible Church. A good actor can be a member of a visible Church, a deliberate hypocrite likewise. You can become a member of a Church thinking you are a Christian, and not really be. This is my brother-in-law's testimony. He was a youth Pastor, finished college, went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, graduated, got ordained, became a pastor, was the pastor of a Church, and realized he hadn't really been born again, hadn't really had the ontological change. Did so publicly, stayed Pastor of the same Church.


Read my post again and see if that's not what I said, and see if it makes sense.


sdp   




Again, your brother-in-law, for example belongs on your hand 2.  As does all the stuff you added to hand 3. that doesn't apply to the invisible Church,


"Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons. Some have this false-belief and fool themselves, not just others)."







Yea, sorry.......that's what I get for going back and sticking stuff in. I'll try to arrange things better..........

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:23PM #27
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:58AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:09AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?

stardustpilgrim             
  




Again, repent... and be baptized in the name (authority) of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins...then...you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




OK.........I'm not asking for knowledge. Back up one step. How would Blu, for example, come to understand the need for repentance?


How does one break through the circle of self to see something greater?


I didn't think the OP was so complicated..........


sdp 




[Well first, again, it wasn't complicated, just (apparently) sloppy and second, you got the answer you asked for...]


Now you're asking another question.


1.  Primarily through an awareness of/exeperiencing of "something not quite right with the world" (i.e., sin.) and a seeking for understanding and/or explanation and/or an answer


2.  A recognition (or acceptance of the notion) of God.





I've personally heard Rick Joyer say on many occasions, "The difficult road to humility is humiliation". And, in conjuction, "We can fall on the Rock, or the Rock will fall on us".


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:26PM #28
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:23PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 10:58AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:09AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?

stardustpilgrim             
  




Again, repent... and be baptized in the name (authority) of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins...then...you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




OK.........I'm not asking for knowledge. Back up one step. How would Blu, for example, come to understand the need for repentance?


How does one break through the circle of self to see something greater?


I didn't think the OP was so complicated..........


sdp 




[Well first, again, it wasn't complicated, just (apparently) sloppy and second, you got the answer you asked for...]


Now you're asking another question.


1.  Primarily through an awareness of/exeperiencing of "something not quite right with the world" (i.e., sin.) and a seeking for understanding and/or explanation and/or an answer


2.  A recognition (or acceptance of the notion) of God.





I've personally heard Rick Joyer say on many occasions, "The difficult road to humility is humiliation". And, in conjuction, "We can fall on the Rock, or the Rock will fall on us".


sdp




Yes, not especially crazy about Rick Joyner... but apparently he got this right. Smile


Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:29PM #29
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Here's a side comment about that humiliation...


There is nothing as remarkable on earth (of course...cuz it's...supernatural!)


You get the biggest "dressing down" of your life while at the exact same time being elevated to a higher sense of worth than any human being could ever imagine.


Total paradox.  Totally upside down from the world.  Unworldly.


That's my (beautiful, surprising, glorious) God.


Smile

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 3:34PM #30
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

Which just brought to mind this verse


God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are


and when I read the passage in its entirety--well, one of those "YES!, Scripture nails it again!" moments...


28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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