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Switch to Forum Live View How does one come to saving knowledge of Christ?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:13AM #11
Kwinters
Posts: 21,943

Apr 28, 2012 -- 9:16AM, lulu2 wrote:


And here are the two differences. between the last two answers. ..some need to feed the egos need of knowledge, by questioning ad inifinitum the craving of the intellectual mind. Which can be used to slay the real, or feed the untruth..seeking more fulfilment in asking the questions, than in wanting to come to know, Christs ABSOLUTE TRUTH. And those who can accept GOD,  because of their personal experience, which for many who have been saved in this way, is more enlighten in His truth, than that of the intellect of man.




What a self-aggrandizing post.


Hmm, you were saying about feeding egos....

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:32AM #12
lulu2
Posts: 454

once one has had God through their own life experience..and not out of books or study or the like. And speaks of Him  with no ego attachement for selfish glory, nor to boast or preen or lie. Then one can speak with authority as to what they have experienced..not for anything other than for the love of GOD, and to express to others the knowledge of their lifes experience WITH GOD. I believe some would considered that wisdom, for its not for my own self agrandizement that I speak. Those who see it that way, are reflecting their own ego, for you known not from where I come.  I care not to change any MIND..but to speak only of the Love I feel for my God.


Your words speak only of you! The only differece is, that I am aware there is a difference!

Without the Soul of Christ alive in us...we are nothing but empty shells...
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:41AM #13
lope
Posts: 11,569

Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I actually admire the persistence of Kwinters, Blu and some of the others here concerning pressing Christians to demonstrate the truth and consistency of scripture. But this attitude seems to be saying, if only you can show me from a rational standpoint why I should believe the scriptures will I believe in the Jesus the Christ of the Church, and by this means come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Is this not a sincere quest for truth? Then why does not God, AKA Jesus the Christ (from the orthodox Christian standpoint), or the Holy Spirit (just covering all the bases) reward the search for truth with the gift of the saving knowledge of Christ?

How does one come to a saving knowledge of Christ?

It seems that with our ordinary rational mind, we cannot bridge the gap between unbelief and belief. So to me the real question seems to be, not who said what in scripture, what's authentic and what's not, but how does one cross the gap, make the leap of faith from not-having a saving knowledge of Christ to having a saving knowledge of Christ?

Throughout scripture, both OT and NT, this thing called faith seems to be what one has to have to come to a saving knowledge of Christ. IOW, faith is the key to the kingdom, not rational knowledge.

So the real question seems to be, how does one come to faith? And the next question is, how, by what means, can one know that their faith is real, and not just imaginary belief in a made-made myth? or false-(non-saving)believe in the truth? (showing the view from each side of the fence). Jesus indicates there are some who actually have this imaginary belief, and that it is not a saving knowledge of Christ (Not everyone who cries, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. Matt. 7:21).

So, on the one hand we have some who seem to have a sincere quest for truth but do not have a saving knowledge of Christ, and OTOH there are some who have a false belief in a (non)saving knowledge of Christ, both in the same boat of not-actually being saved.

But on the third hand we have the true Church of Christ, those who have a correct saving faith in Christ, members of the Church invisible (so to speak, invisible because no man can see the actual [ontological change] in one's being. Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons. Some have this false-belief and fool themselves, not just others).

We are left with two questions. How does an unbeliever (Kwinters, Blu, Paladinsf) come to an actual saving faith in Christ? And how does a "believer" with non-saving imaginary, false "belief" come to see they are in the category described by Jesus (not everyone who cries Lord, Lord)?

So this brings us back to the 'Type' of Kw and Blu, how do we keep them from coming to the category of false-belief and thus not really saved? (As in [only] saying the Jesus prayer or walking the isle of a church, or putting their hands on the TV or something such). How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?

stardustpilgrim             
  





I have come to believe our being right with God, being in Christ, being spiritually alive, has nothing, repeat, nothing to do with knowlege.  Ezekeil says the righteous shall live and not die, nothing about knowing what is right or what the nature of God is or who Jesus was.  Jesus taught in Matt 25:31 and following both the sheep and the goats did not understand that we love Jesus by loving others.  They were divided not on any knowledge, but on their loving or unloving actions.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:51AM #14
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:09AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:



 But on the third hand we have the true Church of Christ, those who have a correct saving faith in Christ, members of the Church invisible (so to speak, invisible because no man can see the actual [ontological change] in one's being. Some are deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending, for whatever reasons.



I would disagree with this.  I have no idea why you'd have those with "a correct saving faith in Christ", "members of the Church invisible" (and with an "ontological change in their being"), being "deliberate hypocrites, good actors, good at pretending", etc.  For what possible reason?




I didn't think what I said here was so complicated. There is the visible church, hundreds of denominations, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox etc. Really almost anybody can join almost any church visible. Some churches have more steps to comply with. But anybody who is willing to go through the steps, and lie, if necessary, can get their name on the roll of a church visible. The Southern Baptist Church I grew up in ('50's, '60's), you could walk the isle at the end of the service, profess faith in Christ, and become a member instantly.


However, there is the One true Church, invisible. Only those who have a correct saving faith in Christ are members of the Church invisible. And only God can know 100% who are members of the Church invisible, nobody can fool God. Only God knows 100% who has had the ontological change. 


So, it is possible for an unbeliever to be a member of a visible Church. A good actor can be a member of a visible Church, a deliberate hypocrite likewise. You can become a member of a Church thinking you are a Christian, and not really be. This is my brother-in-law's testimony. He was a youth Pastor, finished college, went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, graduated, got ordained, became a pastor, was the pastor of a Church, and realized he hadn't really been born again, hadn't really had the ontological change. Did so publicly, stayed Pastor of the same Church.


Read my post again and see if that's not what I said, and see if it makes sense.


sdp   

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 10:58AM #15
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:09AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


How does one come to a (true and actual) saving knowledge of Christ?

stardustpilgrim             
  




Again, repent... and be baptized in the name (authority) of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins...then...you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




OK.........I'm not asking for knowledge. Back up one step. How would Blu, for example, come to understand the need for repentance?


How does one break through the circle of self to see something greater?


I didn't think the OP was so complicated..........


sdp 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:02AM #16
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:32AM, lulu2 wrote:


First, we must admit we have a conscience. And that this conscience has a purpose. Then we must ask ourselves, if we have been created for the earth, and survival on the earth. What would be the use of a sense of goodness, we are urged to choose? If survival on earth, was mans natural existence, what would be the need to want to be better than we already are?


What would cause us to want more than just a survival nature? What is inherrent in our wanting to be good towards others, or to impose on ourselves values that go against at times, our survival instincts? I believe this has little to do with faith, but everything to do with what is the "all good in us", we call God, or our Highest Good.


It has little to do with behavior or nurture alone, because many of us as young children could see where parents, and teachers and neighbors werent living the truth they were attempting to teach us. So what was within our nature, that allowed some of us to see the dichcotomy of their truth?  What was it showing us, if not something within , that was good and true?  




Thanks Lulu2.....this is getting closer to what I'm asking.


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:06AM #17
Blü
Posts: 24,928

Ed


Or why you feel you are not treated as an adult, or why you feel that you are not "left alone" to pursue your own ideas and values.


The point is addressed to stardust, who wants to know how KW and I can be saved and put in a right relationship to Jesus.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:08AM #18
Blü
Posts: 24,928

Adelphe


Zero repentance, thus...


Repentence of what, exactly?  Not that silly Sin of Adam stuff, surely?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:11AM #19
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 8:33AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:21AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I actually admire the persistence of Kwinters, Blu and some of the others here concerning pressing Christians to demonstrate the truth and consistency of scripture. But this attitude seems to be saying, if only you can show me from a rational standpoint why I should believe the scriptures will I believe in the Jesus the Christ of the Church, and by this means come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Is this not a sincere quest for truth? 




In full disclosure, my interests lie in comparing the theological construct of Jesus as it evolved in the centuries to the evidence that demonstrates it changed and evolved over time.


I think that the earliest gospel preached by the apostles was of a human man who devoted himself to god, and for this god made him his instrument, they preached that he did miracles and taught people how to be right with God.  And after his death, which God foreordained and saw, God rewarded Jesus for his devoted existence by raising him from the dead and transforming him into God's agent to the Jews.  A king and a messiah who would enact the promises of God in the coming Kingdom of God, a man who would rule in righteousness and oversee a golden age for all believers.


That is what my investigations into the texts and historical facts have led me to conclude.  But this evidence based view stands in stark contradiction to the theological Jesus and the theological selective reading of texts which mixes and matches different gospels, forged letters and anonymous writings used to construct a wholly different theological Jesus.




Thanks Kw. I'm in the middle of reading a new book by Daniel Boyarin called The Jewish Gospels, the Story of the Jewish Jesus, 2012. I posted a few quotes on I think it was the Trinity thread. He's "one of the two or three greates rabbinic scholars in the world". From scolarship old and new, he completely demolishes your view. I have no time now, but I'll quote some more later. He says at the time of Jesus and even previously, there was a Jewish understanding of the coming Messiah as both man who would become God and God who would become man (two views), but IOW, a divine Messiah, not new.


sdp  

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:12AM #20
Blü
Posts: 24,928

stardust


OK.........I'm not asking for knowledge. Back up one step. How would Blu, for example, come to understand the need for repentance?


Easy.  Point out a real debt or obligation, and a Jesus with objective existence.


If you're right, what's so hard about that?

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